--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "rthorm" <rthorm@c...> wrote:

> An index is definitely part of what I hope to have in the new version.
> It seems to me a little bit 'cart before the horse' to do the index
> now, however. But it is helpful to keep indexing in mind from the
> outset. And to that end, I have been thinking about a new numbering
> system.
>
> Some time ago there was some discussion about a new numbering system
> for the DQ rules. I tried to find the discussion, so I could see what
> had been suggested. If someone could help dredge that up, I'd like to
> take another look at the suggestions that were discussed.

I can't find it either, I came up with some complicated rules to do
this, but never published as I decided I was becoming too anal.

From what I remember the main idea was to add a three letter initial
to distingush our own house rules. We could use owr own initaials or
choose our own as long as it was unique, I bagged DNA. So if I
replaced the unarmed combat section with my own the new section would
be 21.DNA. With subsection numbers added as I needed them eg 21.DNA.5.
If wanted to replace just a sub section, eg 18.3 then that would
become 18.3.DNA.

I don't see any problem with combining this system with yours

> I've come up with my own version, which (I think) draws on some of
> what was previously suggested, but, again, I don't recall exactly.
> What I am trying to set up with this is something like the Dewey
> system for cataloging a library. This would allow new rules to be
> added and appear in sequence, so that the rules would hold together
> and make sense, no matter which rules were added or subtracted. (The
> Poor Brendan's numbering problem.)
>
> This draft uses the same main categories as the SPI version. But
> rather than having sequentially numbered rules, I am instead using a
> three digit rule number. Paragraphs of a rule would be lettered,
> rather than having a point number, allowing for up to 26 rule
> paragraphs to a rule, rather than 9.

> So the main categories would be:
>
> 0 - License
> 1 - How to Play the Game
> 2 - Game Terms
> 3 - Character Generation
> 4 - Combat
> 5 - Magic
> 6 - Skills
> 7 - Monsters
> 8 - Adventure

I presume we could add sections eg 9 - Spirits & Religion etc

> Rule numbering would follow the form:
> 8-255-a
> for example to refer to the currency conversion rule [2nd Ed 81.1]
>

Sorry I don't like this, what if you have 27? Why can't we just
continuing nubering beyond 9 eg 8-255-16. For house rules it would be
8-255-DNA-19 if I made a change

> Alternatively, keep roman numerals for the categories, then a three
> digit number for the rule, and then a letter for the paragraph:
> VIII-255-a or even VIII255a

> Though on looking at it, I think using numbers for the categories is
> cleaner.

I think numbers is better too

> Translation between editions could also be facilitated by keeping
> reference to the old rule number in place of the letter. For example,
> 8-255-[81]. We shouldn't use this for individual cases (where the
> lettered paragraphs are used), but just in the Table of Contents or
> other cross-referencing materials.
>
> --Rodger

I think Your numbering system is an excellent idea

David

Quoting dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@ed.ac.uk>:

>
> I presume we could add sections eg 9 - Spirits & Religion etc
>
> > Rule numbering would follow the form:
> > 8-255-a
> > for example to refer to the currency conversion rule [2nd Ed 81.1]
> >
>
> Sorry I don't like this, what if you have 27? Why can't we just
> continuing nubering beyond 9 eg 8-255-16. For house rules it would be
> 8-255-DNA-19 if I made a change
>

Hi David,

I thought that using letters to identify individual rule paragraphs was
allowing a lot more latitude. Nowhere in any of the original material does SPI
use more than 9 paragraphs to a rule. In my view (and I've tried to follow
that same stricture with the pieces I've written), anything that has more than
26 paragraphs can probably be broken down into two or three rules, rather than
just one.

I was pretty sure it was your numbering scheme I was recalling, but I wasn't
certain, and I didn't want to ascribe something to you that wasn't your doing.

Since I'm trying to cover more than just house rules, I don't want to clutter
the numbering with author identifiers. I do want to be sure to give full
credit to all authors and contributors (something which the Linux community is
finding that they need to do a better job at doing). I'm planning on covering
that in the Licensing section (which should probably be called Licensing and
Credits).

For those of you not familiar with the Creative Commons license, you can see
some information here:
http://www.rpglibrary.org/oogl/creativecommons_by-sa.html
and at the Creative Commons site here:
http://creativecommons.org/

Spirits and Religion could be section 9. It is certainly a subject that the
2nd edition doesn't cover, but the draft you have written is a good selection
for that. Some rules for alternate planes of existence (Demons come from one,
Efreets come from another, but a coherent discussion of the planes is never
provided) could be another, or might be incorporated therein as well.

--Rodger




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This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, rthorm@c... wrote:

> Quoting dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@e...>:
> >
> > I presume we could add sections eg 9 - Spirits & Religion etc
> >
> > > Rule numbering would follow the form:
> > > 8-255-a
> > > for example to refer to the currency conversion rule [2nd Ed 81.1]
> > >
> >
> > Sorry I don't like this, what if you have 27? Why can't we just
> > continuing nubering beyond 9 eg 8-255-16. For house rules it would be
> > 8-255-DNA-19 if I made a change
> >
>
> Hi David,
>
> I thought that using letters to identify individual rule

paragraphs was

> allowing a lot more latitude. Nowhere in any of the original

material does SPI

> use more than 9 paragraphs to a rule. In my view (and I've tried to

follow

> that same stricture with the pieces I've written), anything that has

more than

> 26 paragraphs can probably be broken down into two or three rules,

rather than

> just one.

That is without doubt true (I never noticed that .9 is as high as it
goes before).

I just think it would look more consistent as all numbers rather than
a mixture, also I suspect automatic mumbering would cope better with
all numbers (if you choose to use that facillity, it may be more
trouble than its worth)

> I was pretty sure it was your numbering scheme I was recalling,

but I wasn't

> certain, and I didn't want to ascribe something to you that wasn't

your doing.

>
> Since I'm trying to cover more than just house rules, I don't want

to clutter

> the numbering with author identifiers. I do want to be sure to give

full

> credit to all authors and contributors (something which the Linux

community is

> finding that they need to do a better job at doing). I'm planning

on covering

> that in the Licensing section (which should probably be called

Licensing and

> Credits).

I can't claim credit/blame for the numbering system, it was fairly
full discussed at the time and was a consensus

The author initails were only for house rules, its just too much
clutter for main rules as you said, it was just a way of refering to
someone else's house rules when their could be multiple 18.3 for example

> For those of you not familiar with the Creative Commons license,

you can see

> some information here:
> http://www.rpglibrary.org/oogl/creativecommons_by-sa.html
> and at the Creative Commons site here:
> http://creativecommons.org/
>
> Spirits and Religion could be section 9. It is certainly a

subject that the

> 2nd edition doesn't cover, but the draft you have written is a good

selection

> for that. Some rules for alternate planes of existence (Demons come

from one,

> Efreets come from another, but a coherent discussion of the planes

is never

> provided) could be another, or might be incorporated therein as well.

Well now you mention it I do have a set of stuff on planes (or
dimensions as they're more normally called in DQ), but I have had no
time to play test it, so I'm not releasing it as yet

David

Have you given any thought to what format the rules will be
written/published in? Will we use MSWord for editing and maybe
publish to pdf and/or html? Or will we edit in plain text?

Microsoft Word has some built in tools for indexing which still
require some manual work but do make it easier to generate the index
initially. This system uses page numbers instead of section/rule
numbers and ultimately an index based on rule numbers would be much
more useful, and consistent across all formats (page numbers would
change as rules were updated and formats were changed).

There is also the potential that we could find or write a PERL script
that would do some automated indexing for us.

I think it might be worthwhile to determine this up front so that as
we go forward and add rules people can do what they need to make sure
the index will be generated and kept up to date correctly.

-Stephen Johnson (the other one)

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "rthorm" <rthorm@c...> wrote:
> An index is definitely part of what I hope to have in the new version.
> It seems to me a little bit 'cart before the horse' to do the index
> now, however. But it is helpful to keep indexing in mind from the
> outset. And to that end, I have been thinking about a new numbering
> system.
>
> Some time ago there was some discussion about a new numbering system
> for the DQ rules. I tried to find the discussion, so I could see what
> had been suggested. If someone could help dredge that up, I'd like to
> take another look at the suggestions that were discussed.
>
> I've come up with my own version, which (I think) draws on some of
> what was previously suggested, but, again, I don't recall exactly.
> What I am trying to set up with this is something like the Dewey
> system for cataloging a library. This would allow new rules to be
> added and appear in sequence, so that the rules would hold together
> and make sense, no matter which rules were added or subtracted. (The
> Poor Brendan's numbering problem.)
>
> This draft uses the same main categories as the SPI version. But
> rather than having sequentially numbered rules, I am instead using a
> three digit rule number. Paragraphs of a rule would be lettered,
> rather than having a point number, allowing for up to 26 rule
> paragraphs to a rule, rather than 9.
>
> So the main categories would be:
>
> 0 - License
> 1 - How to Play the Game
> 2 - Game Terms
> 3 - Character Generation
> 4 - Combat
> 5 - Magic
> 6 - Skills
> 7 - Monsters
> 8 - Adventure
>
> Rule numbering would follow the form:
> 8-255-a
> for example to refer to the currency conversion rule [2nd Ed 81.1]
>
> Alternatively, keep roman numerals for the categories, then a three
> digit number for the rule, and then a letter for the paragraph:
> VIII-255-a or even VIII255a
>
> Though on looking at it, I think using numbers for the categories is
> cleaner.
>
> Translation between editions could also be facilitated by keeping
> reference to the old rule number in place of the letter. For example,
> 8-255-[81]. We shouldn't use this for individual cases (where the
> lettered paragraphs are used), but just in the Table of Contents or
> other cross-referencing materials.
>
> --Rodger
>
> Quoting "J. Corey" <john@d...>:
>
> > I would be happy to try and take this on. Since we are doing
> > re-writing, now seems like the time
> >
> > John C.
> > On May 24, 2004, at 3:32 AM, dbarrass_2000 wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I have a dragonquest index, I spent ages doing it and came to 3
> > > conclusions
> > > 1) life is too short to index a book, do it at the time of writing
> > > 2) I indexed by page numbers, indexing by section numbers would
have
> > > been better
> > > 3) I'm no good at indexing :--(
> > >
> > > This is why I have never finished it, I have all the index
cards, but
> > > only got half way through "D" before deciding it was futile
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "J. Corey" <john@d...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Also, the one thing DQ has never had that makes me CRAZY is a
> decent
> > > > index. This is a great opportunity make a good one
> > > >
> > > > John C

I have been a longtime advocate for having files and information that is
accessible to as many people as possible. I have run the DQ Newsletter in
text-only format, so that nearly anyone should be able to access the material.
Plain text may not be nicely formatted or have some of the other readability
features that other file types offer, but the basic information can be
accessed.

Use of Wintel PCs is widespread, but not unanimous. There are lots of Mac users
and others who would not be able to use the files if we used MS Word.
Proprietary formats also change over time. I had to convert my original "Poor
Brendan's Almanac" files when I decided to update it and publish it on the Web.
I had originally composed it on a Macintosh, and had since moved over to a PC
platform. But plain text files will not be obsoleted by changes in the file
format. And plain text can easily be imported into anyone's favorite program
and enhanced as desired.

I also think that good layout and readability are important factors to consider,
so plain text files by themselves are not going to be the only format we will
want to support. I am also a fan of Adobe Acrobat (PDF) format because it is
widely available (though I understand that it is not available for OS/2
systems) and it allows complete formatting and layout control.

I recently found out that PHP scripts can be set up that will automatically
generate PDF files. I suppose that my ideal would be to set this up on a site
that would allow the automatic generation of a PDF copy of the rules, allow the
selection of which optional rules to include, etc.

But I strongly feel that the base text must be simple plain text. I don't have
a problem with anyone using MS Word, if that is their preferred word processor.
I use Word at work, but I also use Open Office and Edit Pad, and prefer those
programs. Any word processor will output a plain text file. If nothing else,
you can always copy and paste text into an email program.

And lastly, plain text files are smaller than anything with built in formatting,
so that also helps make it easier to archive and share them.

--Rodger


Quoting artgrtr8u <artgrtr8u@yahoo.com>:

> Have you given any thought to what format the rules will be
> written/published in? Will we use MSWord for editing and maybe
> publish to pdf and/or html? Or will we edit in plain text?
>
> Microsoft Word has some built in tools for indexing which still
> require some manual work but do make it easier to generate the index
> initially. This system uses page numbers instead of section/rule
> numbers and ultimately an index based on rule numbers would be much
> more useful, and consistent across all formats (page numbers would
> change as rules were updated and formats were changed).
>
> There is also the potential that we could find or write a PERL script
> that would do some automated indexing for us.
>
> I think it might be worthwhile to determine this up front so that as
> we go forward and add rules people can do what they need to make sure
> the index will be generated and kept up to date correctly.
>
> -Stephen Johnson (the other one)

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

If a professional geek might chime in here...

Can I suggest a middle-ground? How about RTF? Rich-
Text Format is like txt on steroids. It would allow
for things like bold and italic, as well as pictures,
but it's a fairly universal standard. To the best of
my knowlege, there are a multitude of programs on
*every* platform that will read RTF, not just PC and
Mac, but Linux, too.
MS Word will read and write RTF, as will OpenOffice
and Star Office, which are available for multiple
platforms.

And, just side note, I'm not really interested in
contributing to the rules themselves, per se, since
I'm not actively gaming, but I would be happy to be a
technical advisor/grunt for formats and conversions,
etc.

Thanks,
Jim
--- Original Message ---
From: rthorm@cornellbox.com
To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [dq-rules] Plain Text Files Preferred

>I have been a longtime advocate for having files and

information that is

>accessible to as many people as possible. I have run

the DQ Newsletter in

>text-only format, so that nearly anyone should be

able to access the material.

>Plain text may not be nicely formatted or have some

of the other readability

>features that other file types offer, but the basic

information can be

>accessed.
>
>Use of Wintel PCs is widespread, but not unanimous.

There are lots of Mac users

>and others who would not be able to use the files if

we used MS Word.

>Proprietary formats also change over time. I had to

convert my original "Poor

>Brendan's Almanac" files when I decided to update it

and publish it on the Web.

> I had originally composed it on a Macintosh, and had

since moved over to a PC

>platform. But plain text files will not be obsoleted

by changes in the file

>format. And plain text can easily be imported into

anyone's favorite program

>and enhanced as desired.
>
>I also think that good layout and readability are

important factors to consider,

>so plain text files by themselves are not going to be

the only format we will

>want to support. I am also a fan of Adobe Acrobat

(PDF) format because it is

>widely available (though I understand that it is not

available for OS/2

>systems) and it allows complete formatting and layout

control.

>
>I recently found out that PHP scripts can be set up

that will automatically

>generate PDF files. I suppose that my ideal would be

to set this up on a site

>that would allow the automatic generation of a PDF

copy of the rules, allow the

>selection of which optional rules to include, etc.
>
>But I strongly feel that the base text must be simple

plain text. I don't have

>a problem with anyone using MS Word, if that is their

preferred word processor.

> I use Word at work, but I also use Open Office and

Edit Pad, and prefer those

>programs. Any word processor will output a plain

text file. If nothing else,

>you can always copy and paste text into an email

program.

>
>And lastly, plain text files are smaller than

anything with built in formatting,

>so that also helps make it easier to archive and

share them.

>
> --Rodger

--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org

I'm not sure what benefit we would get from RTF. These are game rules, so there
are not many things that need to be bold or italic. There may be some
standards for using bold, eg the first sentence in each rule paragraph is in
bold in 2nd Ed rules. But that can probably be handled when it comes time to
create finished, formatted pages for printing or electronic display.

If we use RTF, then it adds the complexity of making sure it is properly used,
and a whole additional set of formatting standards need to be followed and
enforced. I'd rather not have to worry about those factors, and just
concentrate on the content.

I'm not against the use of other formats. But the base standard for writing and
archiving the rules should be the cleanest and simplest. And it should be
relatively simple to take the plain text and plug it in to your favorite
program and enhance it with RTF benefits.

--Rodger



Quoting "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@sbcglobal.net>:

> If a professional geek might chime in here...
>
> Can I suggest a middle-ground? How about RTF? Rich-
> Text Format is like txt on steroids. It would allow
> for things like bold and italic, as well as pictures,
> but it's a fairly universal standard. To the best of
> my knowlege, there are a multitude of programs on
> *every* platform that will read RTF, not just PC and
> Mac, but Linux, too.
> MS Word will read and write RTF, as will OpenOffice
> and Star Office, which are available for multiple
> platforms.
>
> And, just side note, I'm not really interested in
> contributing to the rules themselves, per se, since
> I'm not actively gaming, but I would be happy to be a
> technical advisor/grunt for formats and conversions,
> etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim

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This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

The simpler the format the easier it would be to come up with some
automated indexing and toc generating scripts.

As for numbering, I favor a simple #.#.# format. Such as:
S.R.s.p
S = section number (e.g. 5 for Magic)
R = rule number (e.g. 12 for College of E&E)
s = sub-rule number (e.g. 4 for general knowledge spells)
p = paragraph number (e.g. 1 for Spell of Charming - this may be
overkill, but some rules may have a complexity that goes this deep)

so the Ensorcelments and Enchantments Spell of Charming would be rule
5.12.4.1

this would be easy for people to reference and easy to index by. But
I'm also a bit biased, since I come from a software background and I'm
used to seeing numbering schemes like this (like software version
numbers). Frankly I could go along with anything.

I am assuming the rule numbers would start over at 1 for each section,
instead of having the rule numbers independent of the section numbers
as they are in the 2nd ed.

SMJ

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, rthorm@c... wrote:
> I'm not sure what benefit we would get from RTF. These are game
rules, so there
> are not many things that need to be bold or italic. There may be some
> standards for using bold, eg the first sentence in each rule
paragraph is in
> bold in 2nd Ed rules. But that can probably be handled when it
comes time to
> create finished, formatted pages for printing or electronic display.
>
> If we use RTF, then it adds the complexity of making sure it is
properly used,
> and a whole additional set of formatting standards need to be
followed and
> enforced. I'd rather not have to worry about those factors, and just
> concentrate on the content.
>
> I'm not against the use of other formats. But the base standard for
writing and
> archiving the rules should be the cleanest and simplest. And it
should be
> relatively simple to take the plain text and plug it in to your favorite
> program and enhance it with RTF benefits.
>
> --Rodger
>
>
>
> Quoting "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@s...>:
>
> > If a professional geek might chime in here...
> >
> > Can I suggest a middle-ground? How about RTF? Rich-
> > Text Format is like txt on steroids. It would allow
> > for things like bold and italic, as well as pictures,
> > but it's a fairly universal standard. To the best of
> > my knowlege, there are a multitude of programs on
> > *every* platform that will read RTF, not just PC and
> > Mac, but Linux, too.
> > MS Word will read and write RTF, as will OpenOffice
> > and Star Office, which are available for multiple
> > platforms.
> >
> > And, just side note, I'm not really interested in
> > contributing to the rules themselves, per se, since
> > I'm not actively gaming, but I would be happy to be a
> > technical advisor/grunt for formats and conversions,
> > etc.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jim
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

rthorm@cornellbox.com writes:

> I'm not sure what benefit we would get from RTF.

I can think of several reasons to use a proper word processor
for this project:

1) Tables. Rolegames have lots of tables, and creating and
manipulating tables in a word pro is much much easier than in
plain text.

2) Cross references. DQ is *littered* with cross-references;
having a word processor take care of this for you is *far
easier* than trying to manage cross references by hand.

3) Auto-numbering, especially with section numbering. Trying to
keep numbering consistent by hand in long documents is
devilishly difficult, especially if you have more than one
person working on the project. Using a word-processor that
can handle this for you takes care of a lot of that worry.

4) Building lists of tables, sections. Can be automated with a
word processor.

5) Building indexes. Good word-processors can provide good tools
to help with this and make the job much easier.

6) Some limited amount of formatting actually makes it easier to
work on the document. With visual clues in place (like
different faces and weights used for headings, bullets,
indented text, emphasis, and the like) it's actually easier to
write large documents because these visual clues provide you
with non-"word" context that's valuable for the writer.

7) Automated error checking. Nothing can replace the need for a
good proof-read, but automated spelling and grammar checking
can make it far easier to produce a cleaner first draft.

If what you're worried about is access, then I think Open Office
is an excellent suggested tool -- it has decent features, and is
available on many platforms, and it is available for free.

There are other open source word processors available as well,
but I seem to think that Open Office provides the best feature
set at the moment.



--
Viktor Haag : Software & Information Design : Research In Motion
+--+
Disclaimer mandated by employer: "This transmission may contain
confidential or privileged material. Any use of this information
by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you
have received this transmission in error, please immediately
reply to the sender and delete this information from your
system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may
be unlawful."

Before I make any more comments I'd just like to say that's it's
probably better to just go ahead with plain text, rather than get
caught up in a discussion about what we should use to edit. I'd
rather concentrate on the rules and not the tools. We can cross the
bridge of tables and charts when we come to them (maybe html or xml?).
That being said...

I think one thing to take into account is the level of computer
literacy and familiarity with word processing features of the people
who are actually going to take part in this. While a good word
processor will do all the things mentioned below, all of which would
be useful, it can also screw up a lot of the things listed below.
I've seen documents edited by a few different people that looked like
they were auto-numbered, but actually there were three or four
separate number sets that people had manually edited to make
sequential. This can get very confusing if people delete or cut and
paste sections without the proper care. Once these things get screwed
up it can be rather annoying and time consuming to set them straight
again.

I hate to over-complicate things, but the more complex the editing
tool the more likely we need to have someone operate as an editor,
possibly even with some sort of version control and approval process.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Viktor Haag <vhaag@r...> wrote:
> rthorm@c... writes:
> > I'm not sure what benefit we would get from RTF.
>
> I can think of several reasons to use a proper word processor
> for this project:
>
> 1) Tables. Rolegames have lots of tables, and creating and
> manipulating tables in a word pro is much much easier than in
> plain text.
>
> 2) Cross references. DQ is *littered* with cross-references;
> having a word processor take care of this for you is *far
> easier* than trying to manage cross references by hand.
>
> 3) Auto-numbering, especially with section numbering. Trying to
> keep numbering consistent by hand in long documents is
> devilishly difficult, especially if you have more than one
> person working on the project. Using a word-processor that
> can handle this for you takes care of a lot of that worry.
>
> 4) Building lists of tables, sections. Can be automated with a
> word processor.
>
> 5) Building indexes. Good word-processors can provide good tools
> to help with this and make the job much easier.
>
> 6) Some limited amount of formatting actually makes it easier to
> work on the document. With visual clues in place (like
> different faces and weights used for headings, bullets,
> indented text, emphasis, and the like) it's actually easier to
> write large documents because these visual clues provide you
> with non-"word" context that's valuable for the writer.
>
> 7) Automated error checking. Nothing can replace the need for a
> good proof-read, but automated spelling and grammar checking
> can make it far easier to produce a cleaner first draft.
>
> If what you're worried about is access, then I think Open Office
> is an excellent suggested tool -- it has decent features, and is
> available on many platforms, and it is available for free.
>
> There are other open source word processors available as well,
> but I seem to think that Open Office provides the best feature
> set at the moment.
>
>
>
> --
> Viktor Haag : Software & Information Design : Research In Motion
> +--+
> Disclaimer mandated by employer: "This transmission may contain
> confidential or privileged material. Any use of this information
> by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you
> have received this transmission in error, please immediately
> reply to the sender and delete this information from your
> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may
> be unlawful."

Oh, by all means, go with what is simplest for
everyone before efforts get diverted. I just remember
how useful the graphics were for certain things, like
the combat system. Likewise, tables for, well, just
about everything! Tables can be done with tabs, of
course, but graphics are something else.

That being said, flat text *is* the most universal of
formats. Anything "special" can be done last minute
by whomever, in whatever way they want. HTML might,
ultimately, be best for that, all things considered.
In any case, I'm sorry to have muddied the waters at
all. My offer for help with formating and assorted
tech stuff still stands, though.

Good luck!
Jim
--- Original Message ---
From: "artgrtr8u" <stephenj@westpole.com>
To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Plain Text Files Preferred

>Before I make any more comments I'd just like to say

that's it's

>probably better to just go ahead with plain text,

rather than get

>caught up in a discussion about what we should use to

edit. I'd

>rather concentrate on the rules and not the tools.

We can cross the

>bridge of tables and charts when we come to them

(maybe html or xml?).

> That being said...
>
>I think one thing to take into account is the level

of computer

>literacy and familiarity with word processing

features of the people

>who are actually going to take part in this. While a

good word

>processor will do all the things mentioned below, all

of which would

>be useful, it can also screw up a lot of the things

listed below.

>I've seen documents edited by a few different people

that looked like

>they were auto-numbered, but actually there were

three or four

>separate number sets that people had manually edited

to make

>sequential. This can get very confusing if people

delete or cut and

>paste sections without the proper care. Once these

things get screwed

>up it can be rather annoying and time consuming to

set them straight

>again.
>
>I hate to over-complicate things, but the more

complex the editing

>tool the more likely we need to have someone operate

as an editor,

>possibly even with some sort of version control and

approval process.

>
>--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Viktor Haag

<vhaag@r...> wrote:

>> rthorm@c... writes:
>> > I'm not sure what benefit we would get from RTF.
>>
>> I can think of several reasons to use a proper word

processor

>> for this project:
>>
>> 1) Tables. Rolegames have lots of tables, and

creating and

>> manipulating tables in a word pro is much much

easier than in

>> plain text.
>>
>> 2) Cross references. DQ is *littered* with cross-

references;

>> having a word processor take care of this for

you is *far

>> easier* than trying to manage cross references

by hand.

>>
>> 3) Auto-numbering, especially with section

numbering. Trying to

>> keep numbering consistent by hand in long

documents is

>> devilishly difficult, especially if you have

more than one

>> person working on the project. Using a word-

processor that

>> can handle this for you takes care of a lot of

that worry.

>>
>> 4) Building lists of tables, sections. Can be

automated with a

>> word processor.
>>
>> 5) Building indexes. Good word-processors can

provide good tools

>> to help with this and make the job much easier.
>>
>> 6) Some limited amount of formatting actually makes

it easier to

>> work on the document. With visual clues in place

(like

>> different faces and weights used for headings,

bullets,

>> indented text, emphasis, and the like) it's

actually easier to

>> write large documents because these visual clues

provide you

>> with non-"word" context that's valuable for the

writer.

>>
>> 7) Automated error checking. Nothing can replace

the need for a

>> good proof-read, but automated spelling and

grammar checking

>> can make it far easier to produce a cleaner

first draft.

>>
>> If what you're worried about is access, then I

think Open Office

>> is an excellent suggested tool -- it has decent

features, and is

>> available on many platforms, and it is available

for free.

>>
>> There are other open source word processors

available as well,

>> but I seem to think that Open Office provides the

best feature

>> set at the moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Viktor Haag : Software & Information Design :

Research In Motion

>> +--+
>> Disclaimer mandated by employer: "This

transmission may contain

>> confidential or privileged material. Any use of

this information

>> by anyone other than the intended recipient is

prohibited. If you

>> have received this transmission in error, please

immediately

>> reply to the sender and delete this information

from your

>> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or

reproduction of this

>> transmission by unintended recipients is not

authorized and may

>> be unlawful."
>
>
>
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--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org

Seems to me that we're going to need plain text to get all the rules into a
workable files and then hash out the mechanics and other details. Then we're
going to need all the formatting to turn the final plain text files into a
presentable document that's easy to read and use.



Stephen

I think systems that rely on what people already know are more
effective. If we change the numbering system, it will make it more
difficult to use, at least in the short term

John C.

On May 26, 2004, at 12:04 AM, rthorm wrote:

> An index is definitely part of what I hope to have in the new version.
> It seems to me a little bit 'cart before the horse' to do the index
> now, however.  But it is helpful to keep indexing in mind from the
> outset.  And to that end, I have been thinking about a new numbering
> system.
>
> Some time ago there was some discussion about a new numbering system
> for the DQ rules.  I tried to find the discussion, so I could see what
> had been suggested.  If someone could help dredge that up, I'd like to
> take another look at the suggestions that were discussed.
>
> I've come up with my own version, which (I think) draws on some of
> what was previously suggested, but, again, I don't recall exactly.
> What I am trying to set up with this is something like the Dewey
> system for cataloging a library.  This would allow new rules to be
> added and appear in sequence, so that the rules would hold together
> and make sense, no matter which rules were added or subtracted.  (The
> Poor Brendan's numbering problem.)
>
> This draft uses the same main categories as the SPI version.  But
> rather than having sequentially numbered rules, I am instead using a
> three digit rule number.  Paragraphs of a rule would be lettered,
> rather than having a point number, allowing for up to 26 rule
> paragraphs to a rule, rather than 9.
>
> So the main categories would be:
>
> 0    - License
> 1    - How to Play the Game
> 2    - Game Terms
> 3    - Character Generation
> 4    - Combat
> 5    - Magic
> 6    - Skills
> 7    - Monsters
> 8    - Adventure
>
> Rule numbering would follow the form:
> 8-255-a
> for example to refer to the currency conversion rule [2nd Ed 81.1]
>
> Alternatively, keep roman numerals for the categories, then a three
> digit number for the rule, and then a letter for the paragraph:
> VIII-255-a  or even VIII255a
>
> Though on looking at it, I think using numbers for the categories is
> cleaner.
>
> Translation between editions could also be facilitated by keeping
> reference to the old rule number in place of the letter.  For example,
> 8-255-[81].  We shouldn't use this for individual cases (where the
> lettered paragraphs are used), but just in the Table of Contents or
> other cross-referencing materials. 
>
> --Rodger
>
> Quoting "J. Corey" <john@dragonquestadventures.com>:
>
> > I would be happy to try and take this on.  Since we are doing
> > re-writing, now seems like the time
> >
> > John C.
> > On May 24, 2004, at 3:32 AM, dbarrass_2000 wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >  I have a dragonquest index, I spent ages doing it and came to 3
> > >  conclusions
> > >  1) life is too short to index a book, do it at the time of
> writing
> > >  2) I indexed by page numbers, indexing by section numbers would
> have
> > >  been better
> > >  3) I'm no good at indexing :--(
> > >
> > >  This is why I have never finished it, I have all the index
> cards, but
> > >  only got half way through "D" before deciding it was futile
> > >
> > >  David
> > >
> > >  --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "J. Corey" <john@d...> wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  > Also, the one thing DQ has never had that makes me CRAZY is a
> decent
> > >  > index.  This is a great opportunity make a good one
> > >  >
> > >  > John C
>
>
>
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I am with Viktor. They can be easily taken from Word to a more
portable format (PDF TXT whatever) why not start with word and down
grade if needed. I think the emphasis that formatting, bold text,
tables, colors is invaluable to a written text. We have spent a couple
of decades trying to get away from plain text... At the risk of
sounding combative... TXT would be a huge mistake in my opinion.

On May 27, 2004, at 2:12 PM, Viktor Haag wrote:

> rthorm@cornellbox.com writes:
> > I'm not sure what benefit we would get from RTF.
>
> I can think of several reasons to use a proper word processor
> for this project:
>
> 1) Tables. Rolegames have lots of tables, and creating and
>    manipulating tables in a word pro is much much easier than in
>    plain text.
>
> 2) Cross references. DQ is *littered* with cross-references;
>    having a word processor take care of this for you is *far
>    easier* than trying to manage cross references by hand.
>
> 3) Auto-numbering, especially with section numbering. Trying to
>    keep numbering consistent by hand in long documents is
>    devilishly difficult, especially if you have more than one
>    person working on the project. Using a word-processor that
>    can handle this for you takes care of a lot of that worry.
>
> 4) Building lists of tables, sections. Can be automated with a
>    word processor.
>
> 5) Building indexes. Good word-processors can provide good tools
>    to help with this and make the job much easier.
>
> 6) Some limited amount of formatting actually makes it easier to
>    work on the document. With visual clues in place (like
>    different faces and weights used for headings, bullets,
>    indented text, emphasis, and the like) it's actually easier to
>    write large documents because these visual clues provide you
>    with non-"word" context that's valuable for the writer.
>
> 7) Automated error checking. Nothing can replace the need for a
>    good proof-read, but automated spelling and grammar checking
>    can make it far easier to produce a cleaner first draft.
>
> If what you're worried about is access, then I think Open Office
> is an excellent suggested tool -- it has decent features, and is
> available on many platforms, and it is available for free.
>
> There are other open source word processors available as well,
> but I seem to think that Open Office provides the best feature
> set at the moment.
>
>
>
> --
> Viktor Haag : Software & Information Design : Research In Motion
>                               +--+
> Disclaimer mandated by employer: "This transmission may contain
> confidential or privileged material. Any use of this information
> by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you
>   have received this transmission in error, please immediately
>     reply to the sender and delete this information from your
> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may
>                           be unlawful."
>
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   dq-rules@eGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
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plus... that is what the index is for... I mean you have standard
chapters the way you do now, and then have a word based index to help
people find specifics. I (again) am a big believer in systems that
people are already familiar with.

John

On May 27, 2004, at 9:59 PM, J. Corey wrote:

> I think systems that rely on what people already know are more
> effective. If we change the numbering system, it will make it more
> difficult to use, at least in the short term
>
> John C.
> On May 26, 2004, at 12:04 AM, rthorm wrote:
>
>> An index is definitely part of what I hope to have in the new version.
>> It seems to me a little bit 'cart before the horse' to do the index
>> now, however.  But it is helpful to keep indexing in mind from the
>> outset.  And to that end, I have been thinking about a new numbering
>> system.
>>
>> Some time ago there was some discussion about a new numbering system
>> for the DQ rules.  I tried to find the discussion, so I could see
>> what
>> had been suggested.  If someone could help dredge that up, I'd like
>> to
>> take another look at the suggestions that were discussed.
>>
>> I've come up with my own version, which (I think) draws on some of
>> what was previously suggested, but, again, I don't recall exactly.
>> What I am trying to set up with this is something like the Dewey
>> system for cataloging a library.  This would allow new rules to be
>> added and appear in sequence, so that the rules would hold together
>> and make sense, no matter which rules were added or subtracted.  (The
>> Poor Brendan's numbering problem.)
>>
>> This draft uses the same main categories as the SPI version.  But
>> rather than having sequentially numbered rules, I am instead using a
>> three digit rule number.  Paragraphs of a rule would be lettered,
>> rather than having a point number, allowing for up to 26 rule
>> paragraphs to a rule, rather than 9.
>>
>> So the main categories would be:
>>
>> 0    - License
>> 1    - How to Play the Game
>> 2    - Game Terms
>> 3    - Character Generation
>> 4    - Combat
>> 5    - Magic
>> 6    - Skills
>> 7    - Monsters
>> 8    - Adventure
>>
>> Rule numbering would follow the form:
>> 8-255-a
>> for example to refer to the currency conversion rule [2nd Ed 81.1]
>>
>> Alternatively, keep roman numerals for the categories, then a three
>> digit number for the rule, and then a letter for the paragraph:
>> VIII-255-a  or even VIII255a
>>
>> Though on looking at it, I think using numbers for the categories is
>> cleaner.
>>
>> Translation between editions could also be facilitated by keeping
>> reference to the old rule number in place of the letter.  For
>> example,
>> 8-255-[81].  We shouldn't use this for individual cases (where the
>> lettered paragraphs are used), but just in the Table of Contents or
>> other cross-referencing materials. 
>>
>> --Rodger
>>
>> Quoting "J. Corey" <john@dragonquestadventures.com>:
>>
>>> I would be happy to try and take this on.  Since we are doing
>>> re-writing, now seems like the time
>>>
>>> John C.
>>> On May 24, 2004, at 3:32 AM, dbarrass_2000 wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   I have a dragonquest index, I spent ages doing it and came to 3
>>>>   conclusions
>>>>   1) life is too short to index a book, do it at the time of
>> writing
>>>>   2) I indexed by page numbers, indexing by section numbers would
>> have
>>>>   been better
>>>>   3) I'm no good at indexing :--(
>>>>
>>>>   This is why I have never finished it, I have all the index
>> cards, but
>>>>   only got half way through "D" before deciding it was futile
>>>>
>>>>   David
>>>>
>>>>   --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "J. Corey" <john@d...> wrote:
>>>>   >
>>>>   > Also, the one thing DQ has never had that makes me CRAZY is a
>> decent
>>>>   > index.  This is a great opportunity make a good one
>>>>   >
>>>>   > John C
>>
>>
>>
>> To Post a message, send it to:   dq-rules@eGroups.com
>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
>> dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>> Service.
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>>
>
>
>
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>

I think this debate is fairly unnecessary, after all no one is going
to write these in notepad. We are all going to use word, open office
or something similar to do this ourselves. Why not just make the
original document and a txt file available?

I suppose the ultimate is HTML, after all if we can read this group we
can read the HTML, its just getting it into HTML in the first place
that's difficult (and don't tell me that you can save as HTML from
word, the output is horrible :--(

I would probably provide a .doc, rtf and txt (not exclusively pdf as
no one else can edit it easily). All of these are a simple "save as"
from word or open office

David

PS I think we should change the numbering system now because:-

1) this will be a working document and we will need to change the
numbers as we add/remove sections. If we have continuous numbers like
DQ we have to re-number and re-print every following page
2) I presume we will divide up the book, so if I, for example (I'm not
volunteering yet although I'll do some), do section 6.5 I don't have
to worry about every body else's numbers
3) It will be a more sensible numbering system, eg all combat will be
in section 4 rather than sections 9. to 24.
4) its more modular for people to add house rules without having to
have inconsistent numbers

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "J. Corey" <john@d...> wrote:
> I am with Viktor. They can be easily taken from Word to a more
> portable format (PDF TXT whatever) why not start with word and down
> grade if needed. I think the emphasis that formatting, bold text,
> tables, colors is invaluable to a written text. We have spent a couple
> of decades trying to get away from plain text... At the risk of
> sounding combative... TXT would be a huge mistake in my opinion.
>
>
> On May 27, 2004, at 2:12 PM, Viktor Haag wrote:
>
> > rthorm@c... writes:
> > > I'm not sure what benefit we would get from RTF.
> >
> > I can think of several reasons to use a proper word processor
> > for this project:
> >
> > 1) Tables. Rolegames have lots of tables, and creating and
> > manipulating tables in a word pro is much much easier than in
> > plain text.
> >
> > 2) Cross references. DQ is *littered* with cross-references;
> > having a word processor take care of this for you is *far
> > easier* than trying to manage cross references by hand.
> >
> > 3) Auto-numbering, especially with section numbering. Trying to
> > keep numbering consistent by hand in long documents is
> > devilishly difficult, especially if you have more than one
> > person working on the project. Using a word-processor that
> > can handle this for you takes care of a lot of that worry.
> >
> > 4) Building lists of tables, sections. Can be automated with a
> > word processor.
> >
> > 5) Building indexes. Good word-processors can provide good tools
> > to help with this and make the job much easier.
> >
> > 6) Some limited amount of formatting actually makes it easier to
> > work on the document. With visual clues in place (like
> > different faces and weights used for headings, bullets,
> > indented text, emphasis, and the like) it's actually easier to
> > write large documents because these visual clues provide you
> > with non-"word" context that's valuable for the writer.
> >
> > 7) Automated error checking. Nothing can replace the need for a
> > good proof-read, but automated spelling and grammar checking
> > can make it far easier to produce a cleaner first draft.
> >
> > If what you're worried about is access, then I think Open Office
> > is an excellent suggested tool -- it has decent features, and is
> > available on many platforms, and it is available for free.
> >
> > There are other open source word processors available as well,
> > but I seem to think that Open Office provides the best feature
> > set at the moment.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Viktor Haag : Software & Information Design : Research In Motion
> > +--+
> > Disclaimer mandated by employer: "This transmission may contain
> > confidential or privileged material. Any use of this information
> > by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you
> > have received this transmission in error, please immediately
> > reply to the sender and delete this information from your
> > system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> > transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may
> > be unlawful."
> >
> >
> >
> > To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@e...
> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> > dq-rules-unsubscribe@e...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > <image.tiff>
> > <image.tiff>
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/
> >
> > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > dq-rules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >

I'm rather new to this forum, but I have a question about the Healing
Spell in Earth Magics. I'm hoping some of you have dealt with this
question before. Apparently, it looks like the Healing Spell can
only be used on adjacent targets. Does this mean that the Earth Mage
cannot heal himself?

I would appreciate any insight and/or experience you can give me on
this. Thanks!

Stroess

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "stroess33" <stroess33@y...> wrote:

> I'm rather new to this forum, but I have a question about the Healing
> Spell in Earth Magics. I'm hoping some of you have dealt with this
> question before. Apparently, it looks like the Healing Spell can
> only be used on adjacent targets. Does this mean that the Earth Mage
> cannot heal himself?
>
> I would appreciate any insight and/or experience you can give me on
> this. Thanks!
>
> Stroess

Welcome to the group

I would certainly read it as that the adept cannot heal himself. In
practice I probably would allow it at a minus, eg minus 5 times the
points of damage he's has taken (double for endurance) something like
that. Another thing to consider is the adept must vocalise and
gesticulate, not something he may be able to do if he's applying herbs
to his own arm. I have to confess it's not something I've had to rule
on, so I hope a debate develops involving someone who has

David

Quoting "J. Corey" <john@dragonquestadventures.com>:

>
> I think systems that rely on what people already know are more
> effective. If we change the numbering system, it will make it more
> difficult to use, at least in the short term
>
> John C.

Quoting dbarrass_2000 <david.barrass@ed.ac.uk>:

>
> David
>
> PS I think we should change the numbering system now because:-
>
> 1) this will be a working document and we will need to change the
> numbers as we add/remove sections. If we have continuous numbers like
> DQ we have to re-number and re-print every following page
> 2) I presume we will divide up the book, so if I, for example (I'm not
> volunteering yet although I'll do some), do section 6.5 I don't have
> to worry about every body else's numbers
> 3) It will be a more sensible numbering system, eg all combat will be
> in section 4 rather than sections 9. to 24.
> 4) its more modular for people to add house rules without having to
> have inconsistent numbers

There is certainly going to be resistance to renumbering a system that is
already well known. I was resistant to the idea at first, myself. I've been
back and forth over the idea for quite some time before settling on the
renumbering scheme.

If the point of the project were solely to reproduce 2nd edition in a new and
open format, then keeping the old numbering system would make more sense. But
I think that expansion and revision are also parts of this. And right now
there is no good way to add new colleges or new skills and have the whole thing
organized in some cohesive fashion. Why should there be 12 colleges of magic
numbered from 36 to 47, and then three more (from Arcane Wisdom) numbered 89 to
91? And then, if there are more colleges added, they will be elsewhere.

Having a more open numbering system allows for a Dewey system sort of
organization, which will allow new rules and additions to be put in their
proper sections and keeping a well organized system.

Since it's a holiday weekend (for the US, at least), I may try to steal some
time to write up a draft Table of Contents for my proposed numbering system.
But the more important thing will be to work on the rewriting of the DQ rules.
I think once there are a couple other samples available, it will be easier for
those who want to contribute to follow the form and do other sections. And to
try to avoid duplication of effort, I'm working on the Troubadour skill right
now.

--Rodger Thorm



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

What's the objective in re-writing the rules?
Clarification
Addition
Ease of Reference
All of the Above?

When you say you are "working on the Troubador skill" what exactly are
you doing with it?

For additions, are we using the submission/approval process that's
posted on the group?

And is there an "editor"? Not someone with final say on what goes in,
just someone in charge of the "official" version.


--
Stephen Johnson
Senior Software Engineer
West Pole, Inc.
(734) 995-6390 x17
stephenj@westpole.com

The worst way to get someone to change is to start out by telling them they're wrong.

My objectives for this project are:
1. Open content and freely distributable version of the rules.
2. Clarification and revision of existing rules.
3. Incoprporate changes and new rules into the system.
4. Allow ongoing improvement and development of the game.

"Working on Troubadour skill" means I am doing a draft rewrite of the rule.
I've already done a rewrite of 81 (Monetary Matters), and decided to take on a
skill next. Rewriting the operational rules (how magic works, how combat
works, etc.) will probably be the hardest parts to rewrite/revise.

I would love to start compiling new submissions as well, though for the time
being my focus is on the rewrite of the existing rules. The proposed
submission/approval process seems too formal for the way this community
operates, and it's probably unnecessary.

This is my project, so at the moment, I'm wearing all the hats. I'm the editor.
I'm deciding what to include and what to exclude and what needs to be revised.
I'm coming up with the numbering system. And so forth.

That's not to say that no one else's opinion counts. I hope to keep things
moving along with a consensus, rather than alienating everyone.

--Rodger


Quoting Stephen Johnson <stephenj@westpole.com>:

> What's the objective in re-writing the rules?
> Clarification
> Addition
> Ease of Reference
> All of the Above?
>
> When you say you are "working on the Troubador skill" what exactly are
> you doing with it?
>
> For additions, are we using the submission/approval process that's
> posted on the group?
>
> And is there an "editor"? Not someone with final say on what goes in,
> just someone in charge of the "official" version.

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Question:
Stylistically, how best should gender neutral writing be accomplished?

At the time it was written, it was probably OK for SPI to write everything
with masculine pronouns and then say that girls could play, too. But I'd like
to be a bit more contemporary and enlightened than that.

As much as possible, I have tried to avoid using gendered pronouns, but
sometimes it is just too awkward to do so. To that end, I've written this
section using she/her/hers. We can switch between 'he' and 'she' in
alternating sections, as one possibility.

But does anyone have a better idea?

--Rodger

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how about we alternate, every other pronoun is feminine? ;-)

It's a fantasy world, if people can change shape into other creatures,
who's to say that they can't flip-flop their gender now and then.

rthorm@cornellbox.com wrote:

>Question:
>Stylistically, how best should gender neutral writing be accomplished?
>
> At the time it was written, it was probably OK for SPI to write everything
>with masculine pronouns and then say that girls could play, too. But I'd like
>to be a bit more contemporary and enlightened than that.
>
> As much as possible, I have tried to avoid using gendered pronouns, but
>sometimes it is just too awkward to do so. To that end, I've written this
>section using she/her/hers. We can switch between 'he' and 'she' in
>alternating sections, as one possibility.
>
> But does anyone have a better idea?
>
> --Rodger
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
>
>
>To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Stephen Johnson
Senior Software Engineer
West Pole, Inc.
(734) 995-6390 x17
stephenj@westpole.com

The worst way to get someone to change is to start out by telling them they're wrong.

When I was taught to write, the rule of thumb was to pick either "he" or "she" and stick with it. It was not acceptable to use "he/she". I believe that the formal requirements have become less stringent in the last few years and it is now acceptable to use "he/she." Obviously, this type of language would be awkward or absurd in a novel, but I think it suits manual writing well. If there is someone out there that is more informed than I, please speak up. My last formal writing classes were 5 or 6 years ago.

Steve F.

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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I think swapping / alternating is a good idea. Trying to use no geneder can
make things flat to read

JohnD

>From: rthorm@cornellbox.com
>Reply-To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
>To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [dq-rules] Gender Neutral Writing
>Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:17:50 -0500
>
>Question:
>Stylistically, how best should gender neutral writing be accomplished?
>
> At the time it was written, it was probably OK for SPI to write
>everything
>with masculine pronouns and then say that girls could play, too. But I'd
>like
>to be a bit more contemporary and enlightened than that.
>
> As much as possible, I have tried to avoid using gendered pronouns, but
>sometimes it is just too awkward to do so. To that end, I've written this
>section using she/her/hers. We can switch between 'he' and 'she' in
>alternating sections, as one possibility.
>
> But does anyone have a better idea?
>
> --Rodger
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

## Note: The number for this section is almost certainly wrong. I just wanted
to show how the N-NNNx format rule numbering would look. Also, this is just a
first draft, and will doubtless have further revisions.

A couple parts are still original SPI text, but this is mostly done, as a
preliminary draft.

Comments welcome.

--Rodger


6-620 TROUBADOUR
(unrevised)
In a DragonQuest world, a minstrel who
wishes to be welcome for his entertainment
abilities during his travels is known as a
troubadour.
A troubadour becomes a multi-talented
performer as he increases his experience in the
field. The troubadour is also a student of the
people he visits, and is as knowledgeable as a
scholar in the matter of customs. A troubadour,
being a skilled actor, can also be a master of
disguise. The most useful ability a troubadour
will gain is his bardic voice, which enables him
to influence the actions of all but the deaf.
The abilities subsumed in the troubadour
rules are usable by such a character in situations
not explicitly covered in the next few pages.
The GM should improvise and allow a troubadour
character to use his skill in appropriate
instances.

[6-620a] A troubadour adds to her repertoire of abilities as she advances in
Rank with the skill.
A troubadour has a number of abilities from the following list equal to (Rank
+ 1):
1. Play a musical instrument.
2. Sing or chant.
3. Recite stories and legends.
4. Compose stories and legends.
5. Perform mime.
6. Mimic speech.
7. Act out skits or parody.
8. Tell and compose jokes.
9. Dance (especially folk dance).
10. Dress appropriately to all situations.
11. Simulate wide range of emotions.
12. Execute acrobatics.
13. Amuse small children.
14. Amuse semi-intelligent creatures.
15. Appear attractive.
A character may also learn different forms of an ability. For example, a
character may learn to play several different musical instruments, or may learn
another culture's forms of dance. Different forms of the same ability should
represent major divisions rather than minor variations of an ability, such as
playing a harp and a fiddle. Each additional form costs 500 Experience Points
and takes (15 - Rank) days to learn.
The GM may also create additional abilities for troubador characters as
appropriate for her campaign world.

[6-620b] A troubadour adds 2 per Rank to their base chance to perform minor
magic. If the difficulty factor of the attempt is 1 or less, the character
adds only 1 per Rank to the base chance.

[6-620c] A troubadour who is also a member of the College of Illusions adds 1
per Rank to the base chance of any spell specific to the college.

[6-620d] A troubadour may use her Perception to attempt to learn the manners
and customs of other cultures of humanoids which she is not already familiar
with. The troubadour adds 2 per Rank to her base chance. If the difficulty
factor of the attempt is 1 or less, the character adds only 1 per Rank to the
base chance.

[6-620e] A troubadour is able to disguise herself to appear to be a different
gender, profession, social class, or race.
The disguise ability is not intended to allow the troubadour to attempt to
appear as another specific individual, but rather to appear to be someone other
than who she really is. The GM may also impose severe penalties if the
character is physically unsuited for the disguise they are attempting to adopt
(such as a dwarf attempting to disguise herself as an elf). Conversely, the GM
may award bonuses if the character has added aptitudes or knowledge to help
with the disguise.
The troubadour's base chance to avoid detection is ([12 x Rank] - [2 x
Observer's Perception])%. If the troubadour is attempting to appear to be of
the opposite gender, her base chance is reduced by (11 - Troubadour Rank). If
the troubadour is attempting to appear to be of another race, the base chance
is further reduced by [2 x Observer's Perception].
(unrevised)
If the GM's roll on percentile dice is equal
to or less than the troubadour's success
percentage, the being to whom the troubadour is
falsely representing himself is taken in. If the
roll is greater than the success percentage, the
being notices inconsistencies (with the role
being assumed) in the troubadour's appearance
or behavior. The inconsistency becomes more
glaring as the roll approaches 100.
If a troubadour is using disguise in close
proximity to a being, a check against their
success percentage must be made every hour.

[6-620f] A troubadour has the ability to charm a number of beings with the
special Bardic Voice ability.
All creatures the troubadour is attempting to charm must be able to understand
the language she speaks. A troubadour must speak a language at Rank 5 or
better in order to attempt to charm beings using that language.
A troubadour may attempt to charm up to (2 + [2 x Rank]) beings at once. If
there are more than that number of beings in the troubadour's presence, she may
select which beings to specifically target. The Bardic Voice ability cannot be
used during combat, but it may be used against beings who are hostile to the
troubadour.
The troubadour's success chance is ([10 x Troubadour's Rank] - [2x Being's
Willpower])%. A separate roll must be made for each figure being charmed. If
the roll is a success, the target is charmed as described in the E&E Charm
spell. Otherwise, the target being is unaffected.
A troubador spends (15 - Rank) Fatigue Points to exercise this ability. If
the she has fewer than that many Fatigue Points available, she may not attempt
to use the ability.

[6-620g] A troubadour must spend at least (50 + [100 x Rank]) Silver Pennies
per year for upkeep and maintenance. This includes such things as props,
costumes, and other materials required for the trade. A troubadour who has not
met the upkeep requirements is treated as operating at two Ranks below their
proper Rank. If this reduces the character's Rank to a negative number, the
character may not perform any troubadour ability.

[6-620h] A character may obtain a limited number of Troubadour abilities
without acquiring the troubadour skill. Any of the abilities listed in
[6-620a] may be learned from an instructor. Each ability costs 500 Experience
Points. A character does not need to devote an entire track of study to
learning the ability (it is assumed to be a recreational activity the character
pursues in her leisure), but it takes a full year to completely develop the
ability. Only one such ability may be studied at any time.
A character who learns a troubadour ability this way without becoming a
troubadour may later choose to take the troubadour skill. The character may
immediately begin to study and spend Experience Points for Rank 1 and can be
assumed to already be at Rank 0 because of their ability. If a character has
learned several abilities, the character needs to spend only half the usual
time needed to increase Rank, but will not learn any further new abilities
until their Rank warrants it.

[6-620i] A troubador of Rank 1 or higher with an appropriate entertainment
skill may attempt to make a living as an itinerant performer. In this way, a
troubador may be able to exchange song and news for his room and board. The
troubador must be in a town or other location where there are enough possible
customers for him to make his way in this fashion. Adventurers’ Guildhalls,
inns and taverns, as well as the homes of merchants and nobles all may welcome
a troubador with news from afar, fresh songs, or a repertoire of mime or
dance.
For each week the troubador seeks to earn a performer’s living, roll D100, and
if the troubador also has courtesan skill, subtract that Rank from the roll. If
the roll is above (80 + Troubador Rank), the performer is out of luck and must
pay for food & lodging, etc. Otherwise, the troubador has earned a low
comfortable/high subsistence lifestyle for the week.
As an itinerant performer, the troubador earns (5 + D5) x (Rank + 2) Silver
Pennies a week. Alternately, he may choose to roll D100 using the Starting
Silver Pennies Table [DragonQuest 8.5] and subtract 10 from the roll and add
his Rank.
If the roll is equal or below (5 x Rank), the troubador lives comfortably. If
it is below (2 x Rank) he lives expensively and his earnings are doubled. If
the roll is equal or below his Rank, he lives extravagantly and earns three
times the amount rolled. If the roll is less than (1/2 x Rank), there may be an
extraordinary encounter or event.

(Footnotes)
Note that [6-620h] is a new addition and is not part of 2nd Ed. [6-620i] is
taken from rule 117 Troubadour Itinerancy from Poor Brendan's Almanac.

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I am old fashioned and just stick with 'he'. I also feel that some
sort of notice at the front similar to: "I Like women, like to game
with women and generally am happy to share the planet with them. Use
of the various 'female inclusive' pronouns is a bit awkward in my
opinion and I apologize to anybody offended by the use of the term
'he' throughout the following text." is appropriate.

Marty

>I think swapping / alternating is a good idea. Trying to use no geneder can
>make things flat to read

--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

you can switch between he and she, but only if you change topics. SO
if you are giving a rule example, be consistent through out the
example. But you can switch genders in the next example or chapter.
it is done frequently.

On May 28, 2004, at 3:02 PM, hollywood314@juno.com wrote:

>
> When I was taught to write, the rule of thumb was to pick either "he"
> or "she" and stick with it.  It was not acceptable to use "he/she".  I
> believe that the formal requirements have become less stringent in the
> last few years and it is now acceptable to use "he/she."  Obviously,
> this type of language would be awkward or absurd in a novel, but I
> think it suits manual writing well.  If there is someone out there
> that is more informed than I, please speak up.  My last formal writing
> classes were 5 or 6 years ago.
>
> Steve F.
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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----- Original Message -----

From: dbarrass_2000

To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 2:32 AM

Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Plain Text Files Preferred

I suppose the ultimate is HTML, after all if we can read this group we
can read the HTML, its just getting it into HTML in the first place
that's difficult (and don't tell me that you can save as HTML from
word, the output is horrible :--(

Why not just do all the rules and text using HE and then have all the examples
and other stuff using SHE?



Stephen

So far so good.

A few comments. These are meant as constructive criticism

1) I really do prefer all numbers - and dots instead of hyphens, so
[6-620d] would be [6.620.4]. This is a quibble and doesn't really
matter in the long run, if it is to be with hyphens and characters I
shall adapt

2) The sections and formulae, could we make them stand out more?
Often, when looking through rules, you want to check a specific point
quickly and don't want to read the entire section
Here is a suggested re-write for one sub-section; what the sub-section
deals with is immediately apparent and the formulae are presented
where they can easily be seen. Its not subtle and things may be
missed if rushed, but sometimes I give up trying to find a specific
formulae and make it up

[6-620e] DISGUISE
A troubadour is able to disguise herself to appear to be a different
gender, profession, social class, or race.
The disguise ability is not intended to allow the troubadour to
attempt to appear as another specific individual, but rather to appear
to be someone other than who she really is. The GM may also impose
severe penalties if the character is physically unsuited for the
disguise they are attempting to adopt (such as a dwarf attempting to
disguise herself as an elf). Conversely, the GM may award bonuses if
the character has added aptitudes or knowledge to help with the disguise.
The troubadour's base chance to avoid detection is:-
([12 x Rank] - [2 x Observer's Perception])%.
If the troubadour is attempting to appear to be of the opposite
gender, her base chance is reduced by:-
(11 - Troubadour Rank).
If the troubadour is attempting to appear to be of another race, the
base chance is further reduced by:-
[2 x Observer's Perception]. (unrevised)
If the GM's roll on percentile dice is equal to or less than the
troubadour's success percentage, the being to whom the troubadour is
falsely representing himself is taken in. If the roll is greater than
the success percentage, the being notices inconsistencies (with the
role being assumed) in the troubadour's appearance or behaviour. The
inconsistency becomes more glaring as the roll approaches 100. If a
troubadour is using disguise in close proximity to a being, a check
against their success percentage must be made every hour.


If we were doing this in rtf I would probably bold the header and formulae

3) Sections h and i are we just rewriting the rules or adding to them?
That you have identified them as non 2nd edition is good, but I'm
now confused as to the aims of the exercise

4) More specifically, section h. We had a long series of discussion
about this in Sept to Oct last year in DQ_list. jrr_talking came up
with (in my opinion) an excellent system for exactly this type of
situation

This really is an excellent start. I shall be in the US all next week
so I shall not be able to contribute for a bit (you're all probably
glad I won't be sticking my oar in)

David

PS Would a Dwarf, even a female one, be offended if referred to as
she? ;--)

Sorry haven't left yet.

I've had another thought. Could you include an index as in the write
up for this section written as you go along? Then all we'd have to do
is compile them together to make the real index at the end

David

Hey guys,


I'm a writer, and I just wanted to toss in my two cents. There
are few things as clear and obvious that point out a lousy
editor or a bad writer than mixing genders in text, when
referring to non-specific entities.

The English language uses He, Him, and His as gender-neutral
terms, and that's just the way it is. The people that complain
that it is sexist only serve to show their own lack of education,
and don't even have the sense to be embarrassed, and then there
are those that "feel their pain" and try to acquiesce, and by
doing so, are effectively doing the same thing in reverse, which
actually becomes sexist and derogatory. It's ludicrous. The male
word form is used for both specific individuals that are male, and
for general, non-specific references. The feminine is only used
for specific instances where a known female is the subject.

If you want your book to look like it was self-published, mixing
gender terms will do the trick, and you won't be taken seriously
by many. I, and many others I know, will avoid purchasing a book
when we spot this foolishness that creates bias where none existed
(all in the name of eliminating it, ironically), because it shows
a lack of professionalism, which weighs heavily on the impression
of the likely contents, as well as the simple fact that it's
incredibly annoying and detracts from the focus of the material.

Never be afraid to stand firm in defense of the English language,
especially when the illiterate attempt to mangle it further in the
name of political correctness, while simultaneously trying to make
you feel guilty for something you haven't done wrong. If you need
proof or encouragement in this area, you merely have to remember
that ebonics was actually taken seriously for a brief time in this
country before everyone came to their senses.


Best regards,

Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

I'm glad for the comments David.

For the moment, I'm going to stick with letters, because I'm afraid not
everyone
will be willing or able to adhere to the nine paragraphs stricture. Look at
some of the New Zealand group's stuff, and you'll see some very involved rules
(many paragraphs). But if there is broad consensus in favor of that, I'll be
more than happy to revert. This could also well be something that doesn't get
decided completely until we're further along. Keep kicking this around, but I
think the decision will force itself one way or the other, eventually.

Sections h and i were new additions to the rule. I did make some other changes
in the text, as well. The bit about using only 1 x Rank on difficult minor
magic, for example. Section h was another pass at the fractional knowledge
approach to Troubadour. I like it in that it keeps the original XP hierarchy.
I expect there will be more discusion about these inclusions, as well as the
other tweaks. But additions and changes are part of my intent here as well, so
these issues need to be considered and commented on.

I'm attaching footnotes as I go along, either to cite sources for further
information or to provide designer's notes and added commentary. These will
probably be stripped out and compiled separately later on. But I think it's
good to provide this as each section is written, rather than going back and
reconstructing it later. Your other comment on indexing as we go probably fits
in there, too. Do any of the indexers want to bring in some guidelines or
suggestions about doing this?

I was having similar thoughts about the presentation of formulae. SPI's format
was to include the formula within the text. It would be a further step away
from repeating their work to clearly (ie surrounded by white space) pull out
the pertinent information. I'd take it even further:

[6.620.e] Disguise
A troubadour is able to disguise herself to appear to be a different
gender, profession, social class, or race.
The disguise ability is not intended to allow the troubadour to
attempt to appear as another specific individual, but rather to appear
to be someone other than who she really is. The GM may also impose
severe penalties if the character is physically unsuited for the
disguise they are attempting to adopt (such as a dwarf attempting to
disguise herself as an elf). Conversely, the GM may award bonuses if
the character has added aptitudes or knowledge to help with the disguise.

Base Chance Disguise:
([12 x Rank] - [2 x Observer's Perception])%

Modifiers (all cumulative):
Troubadour is attempting to appear to be of the opposite gender:
-(11 - Troubadour Rank)
Troubadour is attempting to appear to be of another race:
-Observer's Perception
Observer is of the same race Troubadour is attempting to impersonate:
-Observer's Perception

If the GM's roll on percentile dice is equal to or less than the troubadour's
success percentage, the being to whom the troubadour is falsely representing
himself is taken in. If the roll is greater than the success percentage, the
being notices inconsistencies (with the role being assumed) in the troubadour's
appearance or behavior. The inconsistency becomes more glaring as the roll
approaches 100. If a troubadour is using disguise in close proximity to a
being, a check against their success percentage must be made every hour.
-----

Even in plaintext this works pretty well, I think. Read the whole rule to
understand it and learn the game, but then just quickly find the formula you
need later on when you need it, without having to reread the entire paragraph.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm especially interested now in what you and everyone
else think about the revised format for emphasizing the formula in a rule.

--Rodger


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> For the moment, I'm going to stick with letters, because I'm afraid

not everyone

> will be willing or able to adhere to the nine paragraphs stricture.

I was going to use 2 letters eg 6.620.14, but this isn't huge, I'm
happy to use letters

I think the changes are more of a personal thing. Should these be
high lighted as additions? For changes the original should be there as
well so we can make our own minds up about the change

Handling change is a major issue in other areas, and there isn't
really an easy way to do this. The only set of rules common to all of
us is the 2nd edition, and changes from this should be made clear

I like the changes to the display of the formulae, I prefer your new
way to my half hearted attempts

David

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Larry <Kurgan@f...> wrote:

> Never be afraid to stand firm in defense of the English

language,

> especially when the illiterate attempt to mangle it further in

the

> name of political correctness, while simultaneously trying to

make

> you feel guilty for something you haven't done wrong.

Thank you.

Larry,

And the rest of you,

This post is not meant as an attack, and I apologize if it offends or
upsets anybody. If this thread turns in to a flame war, I will not
participate (or likely even read the posts). My reason for posting
this is PURELY to present another side.

Before I start, I agree that mixing pronouns is awkward and not very
much fun for the reader. I also agree that a good editor and
proofreader system is essential for clear, well written text.

In my opinion, one of the great losses to society is the lack of good
written communication skills. What was the last great written speech
you heard (or read)? Have you ever saved a letter because it was
written so clearly that it inspired you? It seems that sometime in
the 60's, Americans (and most of the rest of the world from what I
can tell) stopped writing letters with care. Now we just seem to dash
out some dribble or a response and are doe with it. Some people blame
computers, but I do not think it is that simple.

On with the show...

There are several types of bias, unfortunately. Some of them are hard
to spot or understand, but they exist. The 'gender bias promulgated
by use of the HE pronoun' is one of them. I am not sure how to
express this very well (I am much better in person) but it can be
compared to the feelings of short people or left handed people in its
effect and distribution.

If you know a person that is noticeably short, ask him (or her) if
they like short people jokes, or grocery shopping. High heels shoes
serve two very real purposes - from the male perspective, they shape
the calves and butt nicely (women like to be noticed and appreciated
for their appearance) AND they give women a few extra inches of
height that evolution denied them. Almost every corporate or
psychological study I have encountered concludes that having a height
advantage makes a person appear more authoritarian or wise. Humans
'look up' to greater power. Short people are denied that respect on a
regular basis without resorting to artifice.

The left handed bias problem is much easier to locate. Ask any left
handed person how they feel about how the world is designed and you
are likely to get an 'ugh' related response. From simple things like
doors and scissors to more complicated things like cars and writing
with a pen or pencil. We live in a right handed world, and there are
constant reminders for lefties that the world is not theirs. I am
right handed, by the way, but my fiancee and best friend are lefties.
I have heard about their pain and suffering - it exists.

So, what is the point of worrying about such a simple, 'stupid'
little problem? It is really only a concern if you care about giving
people a fair shake. Imagine going through life being an outcast or
constantly being reminded that there is something wrong with you or
that you are inferior. It is a subtle thing, but it exists. Some
people go overboard trying to compensate - hence some of the crazy,
awkward and not very polite attempts to change the status quo. I
think we have all met the 'militant types' in the workplace who are
on a mission to make them selves look good or others look bad. From a
psychological standpoint, that is often motivated by a low self
esteem which can be a byproduct of subtle or overt bias. This is a
visible disability, but an invisible problem. The lefties I know are
all tired of living in the righty world, but recognize that change is
hard and the status quo got that way by resisting change. People
suffering from these subtle biases feel the way they do because these
subtle biases exist. It is not merely their perception, but remember
that perception can be valid.

By at least acknowledging that the English language is not quite
perfect and that there is no truly convenient way of writing a gender
neutral pronoun, the bias is alleviated. The use of 'he' will still
rankle some, but until English is changed so that a neutral pronoun
is found and accepted it behooves the writer to at least consider the
potential audience.

Thanks for reading this, please keep any responses polite.

Marty

>Hey guys,
>
>
> I'm a writer, and I just wanted to toss in my two cents. There
> are few things as clear and obvious that point out a lousy
> editor or a bad writer than mixing genders in text, when
> referring to non-specific entities.
>
> The English language uses He, Him, and His as gender-neutral
> terms, and that's just the way it is. The people that complain
> that it is sexist only serve to show their own lack of education,
> and don't even have the sense to be embarrassed, and then there
> are those that "feel their pain" and try to acquiesce, and by
> doing so, are effectively doing the same thing in reverse, which
> actually becomes sexist and derogatory. It's ludicrous. The male
> word form is used for both specific individuals that are male, and
> for general, non-specific references. The feminine is only used
> for specific instances where a known female is the subject.
>
> If you want your book to look like it was self-published, mixing
> gender terms will do the trick, and you won't be taken seriously
> by many. I, and many others I know, will avoid purchasing a book
> when we spot this foolishness that creates bias where none existed
> (all in the name of eliminating it, ironically), because it shows
> a lack of professionalism, which weighs heavily on the impression
> of the likely contents, as well as the simple fact that it's
> incredibly annoying and detracts from the focus of the material.
>
> Never be afraid to stand firm in defense of the English language,
> especially when the illiterate attempt to mangle it further in the
> name of political correctness, while simultaneously trying to make
> you feel guilty for something you haven't done wrong. If you need
> proof or encouragement in this area, you merely have to remember
> that ebonics was actually taken seriously for a brief time in this
> country before everyone came to their senses.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
> Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm
>
>
>
>
>To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

Hello Marty,


MG> This post is not meant as an attack, and I apologize if it offends or
MG> upsets anybody.

It didn't, and I must admit to some surprise in that. Whenever
someone starts off saying they don't want to offend, you generally
know that's what's coming. You avoided that nicely. Thanks. :)


MG> In my opinion, one of the great losses to society is the lack of good
MG> written communication skills.

I agree, and yes, it's quite true that computers have greatly
contributed to this, simple by giving people an alternative method
for writing that's easier and quicker. I still hope that we never
completely lose the art of writing by hand, though. The day I see
a computer program for calligraphy is the day I puke. <Chuckle>


MG> There are several types of bias, unfortunately. Some of them are hard
MG> to spot or understand, but they exist. The 'gender bias promulgated
MG> by use of the HE pronoun' is one of them. I am not sure how to
MG> express this very well (I am much better in person) but it can be
MG> compared to the feelings of short people or left handed people in its
MG> effect and distribution.

You're doing fine expressing yourself, and I do know exactly what
you're trying to say. No matter how you word it, I've heard the
claim many times. The problem is that the bias is inferred by many,
but doesn't truly exist. He, Him, and His are simply the words
used by the language as generic terms, because it's literally
impossible to do otherwise, unless you want to create a third
category of expressions that are completely neuter, and I don't
recommend it. I've seen that attempted, and quite frankly, it was
a ludicrous experiment with clearly distracting results. Remember,
we are the huMAN race, comprised of men and woMEN, all retaining
their huMANity. Let's toss MANkind in there, too. :) I'm not being
flippant, as it might appear. What I'm trying to point out is that
the term "woman" is a modification of man, with "man" receiving a
qualifier. The English language recognizes the base, and ignores
the modifiers, when speaking generically. It's not a bias, it's
merely the most logical method. Try and think of "man" as a common
element. All are "human." Some are "woman," and some are just
"man." If someone is actually getting upset because they think the
language is specifically referring to those that have penises, and
ignoring those that don't, they're getting upset over nothing, and
merely don't comprehend what's actually taking place. It's like a
joke that isn't about a certain race, but the race is mentioned
along the way, and suddenly they assume it's a racial slur when
it's nothing of the kind. Honestly, when I see people like this, I
get embarrasses. Oh, not for myself or the language, but for them,
and the fact that they're making themselves look foolish and
uneducated, and they don't even know it.


MG> If you know a person that is noticeably short, ask him (or her) if
MG> they like short people jokes, or grocery shopping. High heels shoes
MG> serve two very real purposes - from the male perspective, they shape
MG> the calves and butt nicely (women like to be noticed and appreciated
MG> for their appearance) AND they give women a few extra inches of
MG> height that evolution denied them. Almost every corporate or
MG> psychological study I have encountered concludes that having a height
MG> advantage makes a person appear more authoritarian or wise. Humans
MG> 'look up' to greater power. Short people are denied that respect on a
MG> regular basis without resorting to artifice.

I agree with some of that, although the high heels bit is a little
confusing. I don't know a single man that considers the effect on
appearance that heels give a woman, other than greater height. Did
you read that in Cosmo? :) And short people don't always get
ignored or have a lack of respect. See, you said they are "denied"
that, when what you should have said is simply that they have to
work a little harder to attain it. Perot, Devito, Napolean... I
could go on. They had a steeper climb, but they overcame. I'm
tall, but I have a brother that is short. He was insecure about it
briefly, but then, while still in his teens, he realized it wasn't
important, and he became secure with who he was, and that lead to
him being popular and successful. It's all in the mind. It's all
still in the mind with the language, too. Realize the truth of how
it works, understand that it's not a slur or intended bias, and
suddenly your back to being able to enjoy the language without
being distracted by silly things bread from insecurity.

And the masses cheered, and the roses bloomed, and the scents of
mediocrity, insecurity, and fear were overcome by the musty smells
of old books and the fallen rose petals, which the literate trod
upon triumphantly.


MG> The left handed bias problem is much easier to locate. Ask any left
MG> handed person how they feel about how the world is designed and you
MG> are likely to get an 'ugh' related response. From simple things like
MG> doors and scissors to more complicated things like cars and writing
MG> with a pen or pencil. We live in a right handed world, and there are
MG> constant reminders for lefties that the world is not theirs. I am
MG> right handed, by the way, but my fiancee and best friend are lefties.
MG> I have heard about their pain and suffering - it exists.

Here I disagree a little more strongly. This isn't a bias, it's
marketing. Most people are right-handed, so that's how items are
designed. I'm a very big and tall man, and it's a pain in the rear
for me to find clothing with costing me a fortune. I usually have
to mail order things. Heck, my shoe size is 16! Is any of that the
result of bias? Of course not, and I'd be both wrong, and showing
my insecurity, if I claimed otherwise. I don't like it, but the
fact is simply that people my size are fairly rare in the
population, and it costs more for these things to be crafted and
produced. Sucks, but again, that's just the way it is, and it's
nobody's fault. Actually, if you pause and think about it, the
percentage in left- or right-handed items being manufactured
*does* equal the percentage of those that exist, but that also
means that it's going to be a little harder to locate those
things. I'm partially in this group, too. I'm ambidextrous, and
all the things that I do left-handed I have to look far and wide
to find. I gave my only bow away to my brother a few days ago,
because it was a right-handed bow and I couldn't use it.


MG> So, what is the point of worrying about such a simple, 'stupid'
MG> little problem? It is really only a concern if you care about giving
MG> people a fair shake.

Are we still talking about the language? If so, I don't see it the
same way. If changing the language as we've discussed, then that's
not giving them a fair shake, it's corrupting something beautiful
and making sure that everyone else ends up feeling just as bad
over what was nothing but is now made real.


MG> Imagine going through life being an outcast or constantly being
MG> reminded that there is something wrong with you or that you are
MG> inferior. It is a subtle thing, but it exists.

Yes, it exists. But *not* with the subject at hand. If people
truly feel inferior or that something is wrong with them, simply
because the language doesn't, by default, reflect their genitalia,
then I submit to you that these people need therapy, and the
language shouldn't be re-crafted just to suit their foolishness.
If someone feels inferior, it doesn't exactly help their case when
they grab a bullhorn, rush out into the world, and start acting
like it in the name of equality.


MG> Some people go overboard trying to compensate - hence some of the crazy,
MG> awkward and not very polite attempts to change the status quo.

Heh heh heh, yep. Mixing genders in text is right up there at the
top on this one. If it makes anyone feel better, I'm male, but I
always refer to ships and cars as "she." And ya know what? I don't
feel slighted by it. :)


MG> The lefties I know are all tired of living in the righty world, but
MG> recognize that change is hard and the status quo got that way by
MG> resisting change.

"Change is hard?" "Status quo?" And just what is it that
right-handed people are supposed to be resisting? C'mon, you can't
truly be serious here. There's nothing to be changed! If
left-handed people don't like something about their "invisible
disability" (cough) then it's up to THEM to do something about it.
Oh, I don't mean changing other people, because it's not any of
those other, right-handed people's, business. I'm talking about
overcoming their perceived problems themselves. If they're sick of
right-handed devices or objects, then they need to overcome that,
either by learning how to use them, or by finding and/or creating
items they can live with.


MG> People suffering from these subtle biases feel the way they do because
MG> these subtle biases exist. It is not merely their perception, but remember
MG> that perception can be valid.

To an extent, yeah, but people can easily take something that
isn't a bias but interpret it as one, simply because they are in a
minority. Is it a bias that women can have children but I can't? I
don't have a womb, but it isn't a conspiracy, and nobody kept it
from me because I wasn't part of their club.


MG> By at least acknowledging that the English language is not quite
MG> perfect and that there is no truly convenient way of writing a gender
MG> neutral pronoun, the bias is alleviated.

Agreed. :)


MG> The use of 'he' will still rankle some, but until English is changed so
MG> that a neutral pronoun is found and accepted it behooves the writer to
MG> at least consider the potential audience.

Oh man, if you only knew. What your describing is a form of
pandering, and you won't go far in the industry if you practice
it. God forbid someone actually creates a neutral pronoun, which
would be an atrocity, but the mixing of gender terms isn't an
answer, it only aggravates the issue. Professional writers won't
touch the subject, and rightly so. This is for two reasons. First,
it's just plain wrong, and an incredible butchery of the English
language, which, although imperfect, is extremely beautiful.
Secondly, they'd get fired for producing unprofessional material.

Hey, one other thing to think about. There are over 200,000 words
in the English language. Do you know how many most people use in
their entire lives? Around 500-900 at most. Before we start
worrying about changing some of the few words we've bothered to
allow ourselves to learn between reruns of Gilligan's Island and
chasing after dates while guzzling cases of lite beer, perhaps we
should turn towards the concept of simply learning more of our
language in the first place, so we have a greater mental
vocabulary to choose from?

Just my opinion. :)


Best regards,

Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

I think y'all were better off discussing the relative merits of file
formats. At least there was a basis for the whole discussion.
First, how many non-males are there in this forum? How many will
participate in the rewriting or expanding of the rules?
Second, in gaming in general, have any of you heard any non-male express
an "issue" with the standard generic, male, indefinite pronouns? In
fact, have any of the non-male gamers ever mentioned anything along
those lines?
Third, if it's such a problem, why not simply have the examples include
specifically named female participants, requiring the female pronoun?
Fourth, how much energy has been spent on this issue instead of rules
expansion or revision?

As the Germans say, "Unglaublich"!
Thanks,
Jim
--
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes.
- Desiderius Erasmus

http://www.utexas.edu/student/utlc/handouts/1284.html

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

As mentioned before

http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~jgillel2/Master1.6.doc

NOTE: This is a pre-playtesting version.
The new version with playtesting feedback is still underway.

- joel

Hello J.K.,


JKH> Fourth, how much energy has been spent on this issue instead of rules
JKH> expansion or revision?

All of two posts to defend the English language from butchery! :)
Not much at all.

<BG>


Best regards,

Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

>MG> This post is not meant as an attack, and I apologize if it offends or
>MG> upsets anybody.
>
> It didn't, and I must admit to some surprise in that. Whenever
> someone starts off saying they don't want to offend, you generally
> know that's what's coming. You avoided that nicely. Thanks. :)

Whew!

>MG> In my opinion, one of the great losses to society is the lack of good
>MG> written communication skills.
>
> I agree, and yes, it's quite true that computers have greatly
> contributed to this, simple by giving people an alternative method
> for writing that's easier and quicker. I still hope that we never
> completely lose the art of writing by hand, though. The day I see
> a computer program for calligraphy is the day I puke. <Chuckle>

I see I missed the mark slightly - I was referring to composition,
not just penmanship. As much as I hate to do this, I think there are
several calligraphy software packages. A further decline of
civilization - soon we will have to communicate by head shot!

>MG> There are several types of bias, unfortunately. Some of them are hard
>MG> to spot or understand, but they exist. The 'gender bias promulgated
>MG> by use of the HE pronoun' is one of them. I am not sure how to
>MG> express this very well (I am much better in person) but it can be
>MG> compared to the feelings of short people or left handed people in its
>MG> effect and distribution.
>
> You're doing fine expressing yourself, and I do know exactly what
> you're trying to say. No matter how you word it, I've heard the
> claim many times. The problem is that the bias is inferred by many,
> but doesn't truly exist. He, Him, and His are simply the words
> used by the language as generic terms, because it's literally
> impossible to do otherwise, unless you want to create a third

I did not take the time to support my statements, but there have been
studies that show that the bias does, in fact, exist. The link posted
by Roger (http://www.utexas.edu/student/utlc/handouts/1284.html)
lists one of the studies and its conclusion:

2 It's offensive. Even if you don't mean to be sexist, gender-biased
language can insult your readers. Research indicates that "when you
use the word man generically, people do tend to think male, and tend
not to think female" (Miller and Swift 21).

Clearly, not everybody will perceive the problem or be affected by
it. The fact is that it does exist because it is perceived by some. I
am not going to go on much more about this, by the way. That the bias
exists is a fact and the problem that it creates (also cited):

3 It perpetuates stereotypes. Language influences our thoughts and
beliefs. Statements like "A doctor should respect his patients" and
"A nurse should respect her patients" reinforce sexist stereotypes.

Although the doctor/nurse example may not be the best, the effects of
the bias are real. Maybe not as real for some as for others, but it
is there.

> category of expressions that are completely neuter, and I don't
> recommend it. I've seen that attempted, and quite frankly, it was
> a ludicrous experiment with clearly distracting results. Remember,

I have hated every attempt I have seen, with s/he being the worst of the lot.

> we are the huMAN race, comprised of men and woMEN, all retaining
> their huMANity. Let's toss MANkind in there, too. :) I'm not being

I think the solution has to come from the knowledge that the English
language seems to have been derived by men, for men. We are trained
from early on that God created the universe in His image and women
was created from man (and not a very good cut of meat <- attempted
humor there). I never went to church, and I know that one!

> flippant, as it might appear. What I'm trying to point out is that
> the term "woman" is a modification of man, with "man" receiving a
> qualifier. The English language recognizes the base, and ignores
> the modifiers, when speaking generically. It's not a bias, it's

Despite all the training that some of us received in public schools
that the terms are supposedly gender neutral, the perception of a
problem by some readers/listeners is real. Maybe the gender
neutrality should be better taught during school - I think all of us
would probably agree that educational standards have slipped somewhat
in the last 40 years.

> I agree with some of that, although the high heels bit is a little
> confusing. I don't know a single man that considers the effect on
> appearance that heels give a woman, other than greater height. Did

Lucky me. I have been dragged along on numerous shoe shopping trips
with different women and have been asked about leg appearance more
often than the fabled 'do these pants make my butt look big?'
question.

> you read that in Cosmo? :) And short people don't always get

Why would an astronomical magazine talk about fashion?? (More attempted humor)

> ignored or have a lack of respect. See, you said they are "denied"
> that, when what you should have said is simply that they have to
> work a little harder to attain it. Perot, Devito, Napolean... I
> could go on. They had a steeper climb, but they overcame. I'm
> tall, but I have a brother that is short. He was insecure about it
> briefly, but then, while still in his teens, he realized it wasn't
> important, and he became secure with who he was, and that lead to
> him being popular and successful. It's all in the mind. It's all
> still in the mind with the language, too. Realize the truth of how
> it works, understand that it's not a slur or intended bias, and
> suddenly your back to being able to enjoy the language without
> being distracted by silly things bread from insecurity.

Good for your brother! Many people are unable to overcome their insecurities.

I agree that it should not be a problem, I think where we differ is
that I recognize that this particular bias, much like most biases,
does exist. Sometimes it is all in the mind, but whose mind it is in
sometimes matters more. You and I might know that it is just a
neutral pronoun, but if your wife's boss is not educated enough to
know, for example, that he includes she and/or that height is not a
determiner of ability then your wife's career enhancement may suffer.
I think that is a very important part of what I am trying to convey.
By at least addressing the 'issue' somewhere in the text, you 'reduce
your liability' and perhaps appeal to wider audience.

> And the masses cheered, and the roses bloomed, and the scents of
> mediocrity, insecurity, and fear were overcome by the musty smells
> of old books and the fallen rose petals, which the literate trod
> upon triumphantly.

Oh if only it were that easy. I long for the day when intelligence is
recognized as the universal currency of change and progress, rather
than Nielsen ratings or lowest common denominator popularity.

>MG> The left handed bias problem is much easier to locate. Ask any left
>MG> handed person how they feel about how the world is designed and you
>MG> are likely to get an 'ugh' related response. From simple things like
>MG> doors and scissors to more complicated things like cars and writing
>MG> with a pen or pencil. We live in a right handed world, and there are
>MG> constant reminders for lefties that the world is not theirs. I am
>MG> right handed, by the way, but my fiancee and best friend are lefties.
>MG> I have heard about their pain and suffering - it exists.
>
> Here I disagree a little more strongly. This isn't a bias, it's
> marketing. Most people are right-handed, so that's how items are
> designed. I'm a very big and tall man, and it's a pain in the rear
> for me to find clothing with costing me a fortune. I usually have
> to mail order things. Heck, my shoe size is 16! Is any of that the
> result of bias? Of course not, and I'd be both wrong, and showing
> my insecurity, if I claimed otherwise. I don't like it, but the
> fact is simply that people my size are fairly rare in the
> population, and it costs more for these things to be crafted and
> produced. Sucks, but again, that's just the way it is, and it's
> nobody's fault. Actually, if you pause and think about it, the
> percentage in left- or right-handed items being manufactured
> *does* equal the percentage of those that exist, but that also
> means that it's going to be a little harder to locate those
> things. I'm partially in this group, too. I'm ambidextrous, and
> all the things that I do left-handed I have to look far and wide
> to find. I gave my only bow away to my brother a few days ago,
> because it was a right-handed bow and I couldn't use it.

Hopefully my last 'rant' on this particular line of reasoning - but
it is the PERCEPTION of bias that creates the problem.

A truly savvy 'executive in charge of this stuff' would recognize
that the extra cost of manufacturing lefty items could be absorbed by
the profits from the righty sales. The whole shebang could be
invisible to the consumer. A lefty going into a store to buy a pair
of scissors does not care about economy of scale, he just wants to
cut paper.

>MG> So, what is the point of worrying about such a simple, 'stupid'
>MG> little problem? It is really only a concern if you care about giving
>MG> people a fair shake.
>
> Are we still talking about the language? If so, I don't see it the
> same way. If changing the language as we've discussed, then that's
> not giving them a fair shake, it's corrupting something beautiful
> and making sure that everyone else ends up feeling just as bad
> over what was nothing but is now made real.

Beautiful but perhaps not perfect.

>MG> The lefties I know are all tired of living in the righty world, but
>MG> recognize that change is hard and the status quo got that way by
>MG> resisting change.
>
> "Change is hard?" "Status quo?" And just what is it that
> right-handed people are supposed to be resisting? C'mon, you can't
> truly be serious here. There's nothing to be changed! If
> left-handed people don't like something about their "invisible
> disability" (cough) then it's up to THEM to do something about it.
> Oh, I don't mean changing other people, because it's not any of
> those other, right-handed people's, business. I'm talking about
> overcoming their perceived problems themselves. If they're sick of
> right-handed devices or objects, then they need to overcome that,
> either by learning how to use them, or by finding and/or creating
> items they can live with.

Find two lefties, one taught how to write by a left handed teacher
and the other taught to write by a right handed teacher. Sit with
them and discuss their experiences.

>MG> By at least acknowledging that the English language is not quite
>MG> perfect and that there is no truly convenient way of writing a gender
>MG> neutral pronoun, the bias is alleviated.
>
> Agreed. :)

Whew, my point did get made! All I actually asked was for some
acknowledgement at the start of the book. Nothing more. It is also a
good compromise between leaving things as they are and fixing the
problem.

>MG> The use of 'he' will still rankle some, but until English is changed so
>MG> that a neutral pronoun is found and accepted it behooves the writer to
>MG> at least consider the potential audience.
>
> Oh man, if you only knew. What your describing is a form of
> pandering, and you won't go far in the industry if you practice
> it. God forbid someone actually creates a neutral pronoun, which
> would be an atrocity, but the mixing of gender terms isn't an
> answer, it only aggravates the issue. Professional writers won't
> touch the subject, and rightly so. This is for two reasons. First,
> it's just plain wrong, and an incredible butchery of the English
> language, which, although imperfect, is extremely beautiful.
> Secondly, they'd get fired for producing unprofessional material.

Hopefully we can agree to disagree here. I see your point, but do not
agree with it. I am an engineer and I understand the need to correct
problems. That might be why I am better able to cope with the change.
Creation of a VALID neutral pronoun will not invalidate the written
works of history any more than abolishing slavery and the
implementation of the equal rights amendment invalidated the Civil
War or the Tom Sawyer. At the time, they were valid pints of view.
(Please note that the Civil War was not fought over slavery - it was
certainly AN issue, but not THE issue).

I think what prompted me to write the first email was the term
'pandering'. I do not think it is pandering because, as I have
written too many times today, the bias does exist. Languages evolve,
and attempting to halt that process will kill the beauty of the
language faster than fixing the problem. Just my opinion. Certainly
introduction of certain slang terms hinders the beauty, if you know
what I mean, dawg. but much of that stuff is just, you know, like
totally a fad. It's cool for a while but then disappears, hopefully.
Much of the time, the use of too much slang is a sign of poor
education or just ignorance - it can also be sign of cultural
identification.

I could counter with the argument that if I am pandering, then you
must be on the side of the 'language purist' or perhaps we should
call you an 'English Supremist' (The Webster Klux Clan - more
attempted humor). By the way, I am not calling you either of those
things, nor do I have a 'real problem' with this. It just has been an
issue in my past and I understand how some people affect others with,
and are affected by, it. For what it is worth, I am a caucasian male
of average height, dark hair and brown eyes.

> Hey, one other thing to think about. There are over 200,000 words
> in the English language. Do you know how many most people use in
> their entire lives? Around 500-900 at most. Before we start
> worrying about changing some of the few words we've bothered to
> allow ourselves to learn between reruns of Gilligan's Island and
> chasing after dates while guzzling cases of lite beer, perhaps we
> should turn towards the concept of simply learning more of our
> language in the first place, so we have a greater mental
> vocabulary to choose from?
>
> Just my opinion. :)

I agree. The 'problem' is that what we are actually discussing is one
of the more common words. Pronouns are fairly important. I assume
that you will agree that having a firm foundation for the language
will make it better.

I think I am pretty much done on the topic, I have certainly had my
say (and am thankful for the opportunity!). A few others have chimed
in with their opinions and all have had good things to say, made
valid points and kept their tempers. It seems that all of us approach
the topic from different directions without really being part of the
problem - once again proving that good material attracts good people
(a poorly veiled attempt to show that DQ still has legs).

If anybody wants to comment on what I have written here, feel free. I
may not respond unless requested or if I feel that I need to clarify
something. Hopefully we can all meet up somewhere and play a game.
--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

Well...

>I think y'all were better off discussing the relative merits of file
>formats. At least there was a basis for the whole discussion.
>First, how many non-males are there in this forum? How many will
>participate in the rewriting or expanding of the rules?

I cannot even guess. You did leave out 'How many non-males will read
the new rules?'

>Second, in gaming in general, have any of you heard any non-male express
>an "issue" with the standard generic, male, indefinite pronouns? In
>fact, have any of the non-male gamers ever mentioned anything along
>those lines?

Yes. That was probably lost in my post, but I definitely have heard
several (many??) women express dissatisfaction with the use of 'he'
as the neutral pronoun. Remember, this is a problem of perception - I
addressed it more (and hopefully better) in my reply to Larry

>Third, if it's such a problem, why not simply have the examples include
>specifically named female participants, requiring the female pronoun?

That is only an issue of clarity and flow. If you use 'he' throughout
the rules and 'she' in the examples it can get confusing and is a bit
awkward to read. Try it, it actually helps show off the bias because
it elevates the issue to the reader.

>Fourth, how much energy has been spent on this issue instead of rules
>expansion or revision?

It is only an issue if you are aware of it and actually care about
addressing it. Besides, the amount of actual energy expended here on
the forum has been pretty low.
--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

Hello Marty,


I just wanted to toss out a last post to clarify our mutual
positions/opinions. Nothing worth writing home to mom about. :)

Oh yeah, if you're reading this, whomever you are, be warned,
I'm goofing off and wasting space, and this is completely OT, so
if you keep reading, it's your own fault, and if you complain,
may the fleas of a thousand camels discover your nether regions.
It's not exactly like the list is flooded and nearing any
bandwidth limitations, and you can always skip this, so I doubt
a little OT post or two once in awhile will cause you to require
stitches or therapy. :) If you're bored and need entertainment,
feel free to try and figure out when I'm being serious, and when
I'm speaking tongue-in-cheek.


I think the first thing that I absolutely must point out is that
we may be agreeing and disagreeing at the same time, because
we're both coming at it from our technical mindsets, with each
of us having concluded the nature of the premise beforehand, and
then proceeding from what we considered solid ground. After
reading your posts, I now see that we may be chasing our
grammatical tails. I say this because I'm a purist, as you
keenly deduced, and my perception of the "bias" you cite is that
it doesn't exist, that it is only prevalent because people make
it so as a result of their own insecurities. The resultant
"bias" is, to my line of reasoning, false in nature, because it
was forged as the result of misinterpretation, and thus is
technically invalid. This is not to say that a problem does not
exist, but only that it is a self-induced hysteria, not a true
external problem which merits unique identification. Your take,
on the other hand, quickly accepts the veracity of the great
unwashed and their furor, because the end result is the
appearance of the bias, even though that bias is created solely
by themselves. In layman's terms, what I'm saying is that it is
a self-fulfilling phobia, and because it doesn't exist prior to
its invention by those that believe it to be real, in my book
that rules it out as valid, whereas you see the end-result and
count that as proof of its existence. Fair enough, and I'll give
you that point, and will agree that it does exist when viewed
from that perspective.

I also do weddings and bar-mitzvahs.


MG> 2 It's offensive. Even if you don't mean to be sexist, gender-biased
MG> language can insult your readers.

You may find this hard to swallow, or perhaps you'll be
pleasantly surprised, but in either event, I have indeed studied
this... phenomenon(?) over the years, and have come to a vastly
different conclusion. My experience has shown me that most
people don't care one way or the other, and accept the language
as it was intended (thank God for small favors). Furthermore,
the ones that do get upset break down into a rather interesting,
and very telling, pattern. The group that dislikes male pronouns
as neuter almost always are liberal, left-wing democratic sorts,
and if not rallying against the English language, can usually be
found on picket lines protesting something else they don't
really know much about, but that has some facet that offends
their sensibilities. In other words, they tend to be people that
b!tch about lots of things on a regular basis. The group that
dislikes mixed-gender usage tends to be more conservative, and
come from the majority that usually doesn't care. They see it as
not only being a bias, and very foolish, but actually an act
that is creating the very bias the writing form is attempting to
step around in its perceived "fairness." I have never met a
single individual that applauded such mixed gender usage. The
only ones that ever seem to talk positively about it are the
very same individuals who are employing it, and are generally
speaking aloud on the subject because they're desperately trying
to give the appearance that they're being fair and sensitive to
everyone's feelings, which, as anyone with an education, or even
common sense based on real-life experience, knows, is literally
impossible. You can't please everyone. Appease one facet, piss
off another.


MG> Research indicates that "when you use the word man generically, people do
MG> tend to think male, and tend not to think female" (Miller and Swift 21).

Naturally, but the key is: is that so bad? Or even the more rude
response, "who cares?" :)


MG> Clearly, not everybody will perceive the problem or be affected by
MG> it.

Once again we come before you oh Lord, and give thanks for your
wisdom and mercies...

<Lighting candles>

<Decorating a cake with the phrase 'J.C. you da man' on it>


MG> 3 It perpetuates stereotypes. Language influences our thoughts and
MG> beliefs.

Ok, to be fair, here's where I not so much disagree as just feel
sad for people in general, and a little superior without intending
to. People, in general, often prove to be extremely weak, and that
disturbs me to no end. I'm one of those types that, regardless of
where I was raised, or the influences around me, would always, in
most respects, grow into the same person. I'm "me" and always will
be. I can take influences and pick and choose the elements I wish
to absorb, or discard them without breaking a sweat. It has taken
me man long years to figure out that this wasn't a common trait in
people, so I now, in my old age <chuckle>, try to be more
understanding of this, but I will never like it. My family was
always confused that I was nothing like them, and couldn't
understand how I was so different, without influences around me
that would account for my habits and personality. I always knew
why, but couldn't explain it to them. I have a sister that was
adopted at birth. I found her almost thirty years later, and guess
what? She's exactly the same as me, has many of the same traits
and such. Her adoptive family was rich and high-class, but she
always acted like she couldn't wait to shed the imposed culture
and get back to her own. We'd both feel more comfortable at a
biker bar than a catered affair. :)


MG> Statements like "A doctor should respect his patients" and
MG> "A nurse should respect her patients" reinforce sexist stereotypes.

I'd say it reenforces the odds. I don't see those statements as
sexist, but merely making reference to what is most commonly found
in those areas. Doctors are mostly men, percentage-wise, and
nurses are most commonly female. No one held guns to their heads
and told them which profession to choose.


MG> I think the solution has to come from the knowledge that the English
MG> language seems to have been derived by men, for men. We are trained
MG> from early on that God created the universe in His image and women
MG> was created from man (and not a very good cut of meat <- attempted
MG> humor there). I never went to church, and I know that one!

Ok, I disagree with the first part, and can clarify the second.
First, the language was created for mankind, not just those with
extra appendages and associated fig leaves. This leads back into
previous arguments, so I'll just leave it alone, since you know
how I believe on this. Secondly, the bit about creating man in his
own image wasn't literal. It's a rather lengthy explanation, so
I'll skip it, and can go into more detail in a private email if
you wish, but for now let me just say that it wasn't referring to
physical form. No biggie; that's an extremely common mistake.


MG> Oh if only it were that easy. I long for the day when intelligence is
MG> recognized as the universal currency of change and progress, rather
MG> than Nielsen ratings or lowest common denominator popularity.

Careful now. You're starting to sound like me. :)


MG> A truly savvy 'executive in charge of this stuff' would recognize
MG> that the extra cost of manufacturing lefty items could be absorbed by
MG> the profits from the righty sales. The whole shebang could be
MG> invisible to the consumer. A lefty going into a store to buy a pair
MG> of scissors does not care about economy of scale, he just wants to
MG> cut paper.

I totally agree with this reasoning. Unfortunately, it's
considered bad business, because it detracts from the bottom line
of profits, so it isn't done.


MG> Find two lefties, one taught how to write by a left handed teacher
MG> and the other taught to write by a right handed teacher. Sit with
MG> them and discuss their experiences.

That would be rather interesting. My own experience had no outer
influences. As an ambi, I, for whatever reason, found myself
assigning a hand to different tasks as I went along. It was
completely subconscious. I can write with either hand, but I
always grab the pen with my right, simply out of habit. Over the
years, I've become comfortable with each hand for different tasks,
and despite being able to switch if needed, still prefer using the
assigned hand for the chose task. As I mentioned before, I gave
away my right-handed bow, because I shoot left-handed, but I could
have taught myself to shoot with the alternate hand. I didn't,
though, because it would just be too odd. Anyway, no I never had
any external influence that dictated why I chose a specific hand
for certain tasks. However, thinking about it now does bring back
on element. I believe I chose the right hand for writing, because
I noticed that punctuation was odd when writing left-handed. I
didn't like the form it took on the paper, and even now, when I
write with my left hand, it follows the same form as the right
(none of that starting the letter at the bottom stuff).


MG> Hopefully we can agree to disagree here. I see your point, but do not
MG> agree with it. I am an engineer and I understand the need to correct
MG> problems. That might be why I am better able to cope with the change.
MG> Creation of a VALID neutral pronoun will not invalidate the written
MG> works of history any more than abolishing slavery and the
MG> implementation of the equal rights amendment invalidated the Civil
MG> War or the Tom Sawyer. At the time, they were valid pints of view.

I think you're not looking at history or the big picture here. I
do not believe you will ever see a neuter pronoun that will be
considered valid, and even if one were created and enforced, you'd
have a riot on your hands if you tried to re-publish classic works
with the words changed to reflect it. Correcting problems is fine,
but most people do not consider this a problem to be changed. In
our current market, and I do not see this changing any time in the
foreseeable future, no editor in his right mind would submit a
manuscript as finished if it carried mixed or neuter pronouns, and
no publisher would touch it, either. The only times I've seen it
done are when it's a company producing their own material, and
doing their own publishing. White Wolf commonly does this with
many of their books, and as a result, my shelves have a distinct
lack of their material. I've purchased books, gotten home, and
then spotted a nice little qualifier inside the front cover that
explained how they were trying not to offend anyone, and so were
employing mixed gender terms to appease the faint of heart, and
those books went straight in the trash, unread, and I never bought
another thing by those companies. I also now check everything
before I buy it.


MG> (Please note that the Civil War was not fought over slavery - it was
MG> certainly AN issue, but not THE issue).

Oh wow. I've got a few hundred civil war reenactors I could
introduce you to that would argue this with you all night long.
Again, perception is definitely part of the issue. The war was
building on the horizon, but slavery was the final straw that
triggered it. Only a very few northern leaders recalled the other
issues, though. If you were to ask any of the troops why they were
fighting, they'd tell you it was to free the slaves. That's all
*they* knew about it, and it was enough. Now, ask any southern
soldier at the time why he was fighting, and his answer would have
been, "We're fightin' fer our rats!" (Translation: We're fighting
for our rights.)


MG> I think what prompted me to write the first email was the term
MG> 'pandering'. I do not think it is pandering because, as I have
MG> written too many times today, the bias does exist.

I can't help but see it as pandering, or at least caving in from
fear. If you know you're right in something, stand firm, don't
start doing something inaccurate or wrong simply to appease a
group that doesn't have the stamina to learn the truth about their
own issue before campaigning against it. That just brings you down
to their level.


MG> Languages evolve, and attempting to halt that process will kill the
MG> beauty of the language faster than fixing the problem.

I agree somewhat, but I hate to see it happen. As the language
"evolves" it tends to wither and become corrupted. Most slang
terms result from a simple lack of education, combined with a
laziness of speech. People will make up words when they don't know
the proper ones to be used. Eventually, some of them catch on, and
over a long period of time, when enough people employ them in
daily speech, they become "official." I don't see that as a good
thing, just a bastardization of the language. I'm almost glad that
Latin is considered a dead language, because no one is attempting
to change it. Try sitting down and writing the most beautiful poem
you can create. Then go back and compare it to a laundry list
that's written in old English. We've lost so much already in just
a few centuries. I'm glad I won't be alive to see where it goes in
a few hundred more years. I think I'd cry.


MG> Certainly introduction of certain slang terms hinders the beauty, if
MG> you know what I mean, dawg.

I hears ya, G. Dass gone be awful not b'yootful when dey changes
it to yall's rap and English gets kicked to da curb. Foo.

I suddenly feel the urge to shower.


MG> but much of that stuff is just, you know, like totally a fad.

Fer shure, dude. Heh, gnarly.


MG> Much of the time, the use of too much slang is a sign of poor
MG> education or just ignorance

Ebonics, anyone? (gag)


MG> - it can also be sign of cultural identification.

Isn't that just sooooo sad and pathetic, too?


MG> I could counter with the argument that if I am pandering, then you
MG> must be on the side of the 'language purist' or perhaps we should
MG> call you an 'English Supremist' (The Webster Klux Clan - more
MG> attempted humor).

I shall wear that distinctive badge with honor, sirruh!


MG> By the way, I am not calling you either of those things,

Go ahead. I felt a surge of pride when you did. :) I'm almost
certain I could hear bagpipes in the background belting out
Amazing Grace.


MG> nor do I have a 'real problem' with this.

Good for you! We'll make a snob out of you yet. <Chortle> I'll
look forward to pinning your lapel when the time comes. At
graduation, you will be required to burn an effigy of someone that
promotes bad language usage (I always torch rap singers), but
anything from the Oprah book club will do nicely, too.


MG> For what it is worth, I am a caucasian male of average height,
MG> dark hair and brown eyes.

I'm a 'Breed. Half Indian (Seneca) and half Scottish. 6'3" with
dark hair (naturally). I'm also from New York, originally. I
mention that because both factors have taught me lessons that
apply to our discourse. Back home we would toss around insults
like they were casual words, and nobody cared. Everyone had much
thicker skin back then, unlike today where everyone ends up on a
therapist's couch at the slightest negative comment. PC crap makes
me wanna hurl. You may find it interesting to know that I, and
many like me, actually prefer the term American Indian over Native
American, which drives the PC crowd nuts (that's half the fun).
It's because American Indian is descriptive and distinctive,
whereas Native American conflicts with logic. If a black guy was
born in Utah, he's a native American, so it's kind of silly to
imply otherwise (which is why I hate the term African American,
too. If you were born here, dammit, you're an American. If you
wanna have another country as part of your title, move there). I
once had a good friend catch me off-guard with a racial slur. He
was as white as they come, blond hair, blue eyes. He waited until
we were having lunch, and I had a mouthful of food, looked me
straight in the eye, and called me a prairie nigger. I spewed, and
about choked to death, I was laughing so hard. Hadn't heard that
one before. So, after getting him back good with my own little
sneaky verbiage (I got him to spew a few minutes later), I decided
to go see a friend of mine, another Indian, and tell him about it.
I walk up with a grin on my face, look him straight in the eye,
and say "prairie nigger!" He almost decked me. :) So yeah, it's
all a matter of perception, but I'm still going to stand on the
fact that I'm right, because I'm always right, and my will is
eternal. <Chuckle>


MG> I assume that you will agree that having a firm foundation for the
MG> language will make it better.

I'm just dying to make a Monty Python joke here, but don't know if
you're fluent in Pythonese or the Knights Who Say Ni!


Best regards,

Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

Larry wrote:

> Hello J.K.,
>
>
> JKH> Fourth, how much energy has been spent on this issue instead of rules
> JKH> expansion or revision?
>
> All of two posts to defend the English language from butchery! :)
> Not much at all.
>
> <BG>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

But, they were *huge* posts! Think of all the rules that could have
been written, or revised, instead!
Ah, well, it's not like I was going to try to participate in that. It's
been so long since I've gamed *anything* that there's dust on my dice!!

And, FWIW, I agree with the standard of male pronouns for gender
indeterminate reference. The last I checked it *is* the standard of the
English language. Also, FWIW, my *wife* agreed with me! (She's a
woman, as in female, as in not male, in case that wasn't clear.) She
has no issue with Standard English. Of course, she's also married to
me, so she may not be entirely sane...

Cheers,
Jim

--
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes.
- Desiderius Erasmus

Okay, so, lest anything I say prolong this....
Let me make it clear that I don't really care which way you go on this.
It just seemed like a silly, "politically correct" waste of time to
me. This "debate" has raged for quite a few years in academic circles,
with little impact on how language is actually used, outside of the
"politically correct" institutions of higher learning.

Either way, have fun. And, I'd still be willing to help with
conversions of file formats, places to download (mirrors), or any other
technical aspect of the project, short of copy-editing, for obvious reasons.

Cheers!
Jim
--
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes.
- Desiderius Erasmus

Hello Jim,


JKH> But, they were *huge* posts!

Thank you. I work out. :)


JKH> Think of all the rules that could have been written, or revised, instead!

And who says they weren't? I've written up a companion set of
die-rolls for grammatical functioning within the game. For
instance, when employing a neuter pronoun, there is a 36% chance
on d100 that a civilized NPC will approach and stab you in the
eye. If the NPC is female, she first gives you a lecture for
three hours (44% chance that the PC will commit suicide), and THEN
stabs you in the eye. NPCs of barbarian heritage simply stand
around looking confused, and have a 72% chance of fleeing to the
nearest tavern and getting drunk (with a prior 12% probability of
first bashing you on the head with a club whilst screaming,
"Please, make it stop!").


JKH> Ah, well, it's not like I was going to try to participate in that. It's
JKH> been so long since I've gamed *anything* that there's dust on my dice!!

I know the feeling, bwana. I live in a small town, and if it
doesn't involve drinking or getting someone pregnant (typically a
combination of the two), wrestling, demolition derby, or beating
the crap out of people for the hell of it, then they just stare
at you stupidly like you fell out of the sky. Books have to be
purchased online, and the only place you can find them is by
peering underneath people's couches to see what's holding them
up. (Small town. Kansas. You get the idea.)


JKH> And, FWIW, I agree with the standard of male pronouns for gender
JKH> indeterminate reference. The last I checked it *is* the standard of the
JKH> English language. Also, FWIW, my *wife* agreed with me! (She's a
JKH> woman, as in female, as in not male, in case that wasn't clear.) She
JKH> has no issue with Standard English. Of course, she's also married to
JKH> me, so she may not be entirely sane...

Ok, seriously, your wife... is it a really strong relationship?
Have I got a shot?

<Giggling merrily>


Best regards,

Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

Hey Jim,


JKH> Okay, so, lest anything I say prolong this....

Heh heh heh heh.


JKH> Let me make it clear that I don't really care which way you go on this.

*sniff* But I thought you really cared! I'm leaving! I'm going to
go stay with my sister until you decide what you want from this
relationship! Masher.


JKH> It just seemed like a silly, "politically correct" waste of time to
JKH> me.

Yeah, you're right, but think about it.... that was half the fun.


JKH> This "debate" has raged for quite a few years in academic circles,
JKH> with little impact on how language is actually used, outside of the
JKH> "politically correct" institutions of higher learning.

If they're PC, how can they be higher learning? Isn't that an oxy
moron? (And please, no jokes about my size.)


JKH> Either way, have fun.

Why, thankee. But methinks this little discourse has run it
course now. A few giggles, a chance to bash the learned buffoons
and ignorant-by-choice illiterates. We've had our fun. :)


JKH> And, I'd still be willing to help with conversions of file formats,
JKH> places to download (mirrors), or any other technical aspect of the
JKH> project, short of copy-editing, for obvious reasons.

ROFL! A true renaissance man, if I ever saw one.



Best regards,

Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

Larry wrote:

> Hey Jim,
>
> ROFL! A true renaissance man, if I ever saw one.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

Later I'll be grilling vegetables (something my wife calls "yellow
squash" and "zucchini") and reading without moving my lips. ^_^

Thanks,
Jim
P.S. After everything my wife has put up with over the past 10 years, I
don't think she'll be shaking loose any time soon. Better luck next time!
--
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes.
- Desiderius Erasmus