Hi,

This group is for discussion and distribution of Dragon Quest rules additions, variants and revisions.

Cheers,

Rodger Thorm

One option is to have every one post new rules and what not here, and
certainly that shouls be done. But another idea is to comb the web for
existing house rules, and prepare a list of the m for posting here. I
will volunteer to do that and post a summary of my findings. Let me
know if ya'll think that is a good idea.

I propose a digital version to DQ. This version would be electronic
(which it has to be given the format here). There is a digital version
of the rules (I got them from the secret distributor), and my group and
I have developed or enhanced many electronic tools for DQ. We could
write the new rules to make them very easily searchable. What do you
think?

"john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=2

> One option is to have every one post new rules and what not here, and
> certainly that shouls be done. But another idea is to comb the web

for

> existing house rules, and prepare a list of the m for posting here. I
> will volunteer to do that and post a summary of my findings. Let me
> know if ya'll think that is a good idea.
>

One activity will certainly be to collect a list of the available house
rules and present them to the group. It would a good use of time until
we get off the ground.

"john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=3

> I propose a digital version to DQ. This version would be electronic
> (which it has to be given the format here). There is a digital

version

> of the rules (I got them from the secret distributor), and my group

and

> I have developed or enhanced many electronic tools for DQ. We could
> write the new rules to make them very easily searchable. What do you
> think?
>

Right Now Due to copyright laws we are not able to freely distribute
the digital version from the secret distributor. However, the old TSR
entity did release a statement that said you could create fan
supplements and rule variations as long as they were original.

I agree that the use of electronic tools should play some part in how
we proceed but there is probably two things that we do not want to do:

1. Alienate users by keeping those without the technology from
participating (for every person online there maybe several offline
players that want to play as well).

2. Break spirit of what makes DQ, well, DQ. A game has a feel about it
based on the way the rules are laid out presented and played. We want
to ensure that we do not break with that tradition.

John

Hullo, JohnR,

>On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:06:02 -0800, John Rauchert wrote:

>I agree that the use of electronic tools should play some part in how
>we proceed but there is probably two things that we do not want to do:
>
>1. Alienate users by keeping those without the technology from
>participating (for every person online there maybe several offline
>players that want to play as well).
>
>2. Break spirit of what makes DQ, well, DQ. A game has a feel about it
>based on the way the rules are laid out presented and played. We want
>to ensure that we do not break with that tradition.

I agree with these two sentiments 100%. To be honest,
DRAGONQUEST was created with specific goals in mind (that are covered
in the introduction to the game in each version of the game), and I
would like to see these goals adhered to.

... SET PATH=Bookshelf;Deskdrawer;Closet;BoxUnderBed;GarbageCan;

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

Hullo, JohnC,

>On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:44:56 -0800, john Corey wrote:

>One option is to have every one post new rules and what not here, and
>certainly that shouls be done. But another idea is to comb the web for
>existing house rules, and prepare a list of the m for posting here. I
>will volunteer to do that and post a summary of my findings. Let me
>know if ya'll think that is a good idea.

This seems to be a good idea to me, although I suspect that
you may find duplicates of materials out there and all. Not that
this is a bad thing, of course, but it's something to take into
account.

... Physics and mysticism are complementary aspects in a single reality. (Wolfgang Pauli)

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

I'll contribute what time and effort I can. I should be able to lend a
good amount of help, but I don't want to commit to anything. My work
load for school is unbearable at times. But, I have some things to
submit once I get them finished up.

Steve (aka Halphin)

JohnR pointed out that rules (like the completed electronic version of
DQ second edition that is floating around) could not be republished.
That sounds reasonable but we should be able to publish rules
clarifications, should we not? Here is what I have in mind:
First, we wstate that we are working from the second edition. Then we
should be free to collect opinion's on rules that need clarification (I
am sure each of us could think of a few off of the tops of our heads
;->). Then we can publish rules clarifications in an organized manner,
using the numbering scheme in the book. We are not reprinting any
rules in this case, simply providing clarifications. We could then
come up with a parallel list for the third edtion.

Juanc1
John Corey

"john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=9

> JohnR pointed out that rules (like the completed electronic version of
> DQ second edition that is floating around) could not be republished.
> That sounds reasonable but we should be able to publish rules
> clarifications, should we not? Here is what I have in mind:
> First, we wstate that we are working from the second edition. Then we
> should be free to collect opinion's on rules that need clarification

(I

> am sure each of us could think of a few off of the tops of our heads
> ;->). Then we can publish rules clarifications in an organized

manner,

> using the numbering scheme in the book. We are not reprinting any
> rules in this case, simply providing clarifications. We could then
> come up with a parallel list for the third edtion.

You are exactly right, I have copied part of a policy produced by TSR
Inc. (they had just been bought by Wizards) below.

Note the secret distributor's copy is the Bantam edition of 2nd ed with
some house rules thrown in for good measure (it seems to be where the
third ed started from when they made revisions). I have done a line by
line comparison of book one for the differences between my hardback 2nd
ed and the secret distributor's version which I will distribute.


We have been working from the following guidelines:

TSR, Inc. Internet Policy

The following policy statement briefly summarizes TSR's approach to use
of our intellectual property on the internet.

....

3.Don't quote large sections of text from our products. A couple
paragraphs for purposes of commenting on the product is fine, but more
than that is off limits. As with trademarks, we're going to be pretty
tough on stopping any use of our material that is used to generate
revenue for someone else.

4.Go ahead and write your own adventures, stories or rules variations,
but make them original. We would also appreciate it if you could use a
little class - sure, pornography and graphic violence sell, but we try
to keep a respectable image, and we need your help.

5.Go ahead and create your own MUD, MUSH, or even video game, but (i)
don't use any of our illustrations and (ii) don't try to make any money
from it.

Note from the webmaster:

We have been getting a lot of "is this OK to do this under the policy"
questions. Let us clear it up right now. According to the policy
(above), as long as (1) you're not copying our text, (2) you're not
copying our art, (3) you're not copying our logos, and (4) you're not
making money off of it, you can use our properties to make your own fan
material (within good taste - no porn, etc.). That's it. Make your
stuff. Have fun.

I do not know if there has been any decisions made on who will
constitute the group that over sees this open source project. I do not
even know if my suggestion is appropriate, but here goes.
I would like to make the following recomendation. I think the following
people should be members of the group:
JohnR - As the leader of the DQPA he is an obvious choice. I like
Rodgers idea of having him oversee and be the tie-breaker.
Rodger Thorm - I hope I am spelling your name right! He started this
effort, and I have gotten a lot of quality DQ advice from him.
JohnK - He playtested the original game, what elese is there to say?
Snafaru (Eric) - His website is excellent, and I often refer people to
his rules clarifications.
ME, JohnC (Juanc1) - Though I have not played as much as you guys, I
did originaly begin playing in 1981-82 when I bought the original hard
cover. I am recently returned to the game and hope I can offer a fresh
perspective. Also, I have a lot of technical know-how and muscle (my
boss has already offered to let us use our companies version management
tools) and a lot of players to help my put stuff together.

What do you guys think?
JohnC

"john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=11

> I do not know if there has been any decisions made on who will
> constitute the group that over sees this open source project.

I submit that the participants in this project are more important than
the oversight group. They are the ones that will do the interesting
stuff. The oversight group gets the job of coordinating efforts,
making sure that work done conforms to the DQ development guidelines
and reporting back to the DQ community at large about our efforts. What
we need this group to do first is formulate the ground rules that we
will be working from (taking from other projects of this sort).

> JohnR - As the leader of the DQPA he is an obvious choice. I like
> Rodgers idea of having him oversee and be the tie-breaker.

I am willing to help with the oversight group and whenever possible
with rules development (I even have a few rules variants of my own).

> Rodger Thorm - I hope I am spelling your name right! He started this
> effort, and I have gotten a lot of quality DQ advice from him.

I think that it is appropriate that we stick Rodger with this job as he
stuck me with the being the DQPA rep (although many of the development
teams will be DQPA members)on this one.

> Snafaru (Eric) - His website is excellent, and I often refer people to
> his rules clarifications.

We would have to invite Eric into the group as he is not currently on
the DQ-rules List.

I cannot speak for anyone else.

Hello all,

just got around catching up on WebRPG messages and got here. I'm
surprised my message about abandonware snowballed into this, this is
great :-)

As I just posted on WebRPG I volunteer to take care of Book I: Section
V - Combat.

As I did quite a bit of research on the clarification of combat rules
and damage lately and produced a FAQ, I would like to push the effort
further.

Here's a suggestion: I could find any pertinent matter on the net, or
have people forward me their house rules. I could sort them, proof-read
them, numerate them according to the numbering sequence in the original
rule book and publish a "pre-release/draft/open for comments or
revision/to be approved" version on my web site.

Just waiting for a word from our president and a vote of approval
(hopefully).


Snafaru
eric@iosphere.net
http://www.iosphere.net/~eric/dq

Hullo, JohnC,

Gee, have you noticed the proliferations of Johns around here?
<g>

>On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:50:11 -0800, john Corey wrote:

>JohnR pointed out that rules (like the completed electronic version of DQ second edition that is floating around) could not be republished.
>That sounds reasonable but we should be able to publish rules clarifications, should we not?

Yes, we should. I don't see Hasbro having any real problems
with that, since they should still be sticking with the original
policy that was established on this matter.

>Here is what I have in mind:
>First, we wstate that we are working from the second edition.

Agreed. The 2nd Edition of DQ is most likely the definitive
one, other than the material in Arcane Wisdom.

>Then we should be free to collect opinion's on rules that need clarification (I am sure each of us could think of a few off of the tops of our >heads ->).

No argument here. :)

>Then we can publish rules clarifications in an organized manner, using the numbering scheme in the book.

Rather than publish the rules clarifications right off the bat,
we need to agree on the rule clarification of a given subject or
topic first. Publish after we have a final version we can all live
with.


... Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall take flack from both sides.

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

I apologize to those of you with email readers that do not handle html markup I included it solely to make it more presentable on the web. The markup is fairly simple and I hope it will not detract from the readability of the document.

John

DQOS is an ongoing Internet volunteer project to develop an evolving rules set based on the DragonQuest Role-Playing System.

Copyright Notice & License

The Material contained herein is Copyright (C) the DragonQuest Players Association and their respective authors, 2000, all rights reserved. Unless otherwise stated, permission is granted by the individual authors for the inclusion of their intellectual property into the work known as DQOS or DQ 4e in perpetuity and that those rights are transferable to any subsequent release of the above work as long as the work remains free of charge under this agreement.

English Translation: This is everybody's stuff if you choose to contribute you give us the right to include your stuff in this work forever, as long as we give it away for free.

Distribution

This game is available free of charge from the several online archives. This game may be freely reproduced & distributed electronically or in hardcopy, provided the following conditions are met:

Leave all copyright, distribution, attribution, and DragonQuest Players Association information intact. Permission expressly granted for translation to other languages and conversion to other formats.

English Translation: Leave all this legalese on the product so that others know where it's coming from and if you want to translate it more power to you, go for it.

For-profit distribution of printed versions of the guide is forbidden. However, you may print out copies and recoup the cost of printing and distribution by charging a nominal fee (the cost per page of copying).

English Translation: This is a free work keep it that way. Ok, if you want to make bound volumes for all your friends you can do that and you can even try to get them to cough up the cost of printing (but I wouldn't count on it if your friends are like mine).

Any for-profit non-paper distribution (such as shareware vendor diskettes, CD-Rom collections, etc.) must be approved by the DragonQuest Players Association (time and usage-based access fees of online services, bulletin boards, and network access providers are specifically exempted).

English Translation: If you are going to include this work in a software collection please tell us so that we can determine that you are giving this work away for free and, by the way, putting it on a web site or posting it to a board is just fine and dandy.

You may not charge a for-profit fee specifically for this work or any part herein, only for a collection containing the work for which a fee is attributed to the rest of the collection, with the execeptions of nominal copying charges and online usage fees as exempted above.

English Translation: Again we are giving this away for free so make sure you are charging only for the cost of copying and any other for profit stuff on the disk and not this work.

Qualitative modifications of this work must include the following disclaimer on the title page:

"This document is a user contributed work designed for use with or in lieu of the DQ 4e and DQOS . It is not endorsed or otherwise acknowledged by the DragonQuest Players Association."

English Translation: If you make changes to this work, at least do not try to pass it off as the original. Better yet, make your changes into form of pluggable/unpluggable or "popNdrop" modules and submit them for inclusion in the next release.

Design Philosophy

DQOS, roughly defines itself as an "open source" project. The intent of the Open Source is to ensure that material distributed under an open-source license will be available for independent peer review and continuous evolutionary improvement and selection, reaching levels of quality and power no closed product can attain.

The essence of open source is that the product is freely distributable usuable and changeable. The main emphasis with DQOS is freely and according the rules of copyleft this material is forever and always free. Some restrictions may be placed on modifying "core rules" as are laid out in these guidelines.

DQPA House Rules, DQOS, DQ 4e, are all terms used to describe the DragonQuest Open Source Movement.

The principles of the movement are:

1. To remain true to the development principles of the original game designers by adopting the original three themes of DQ development.

"Three general themes guided the design and development of DragonQuest and make this game different and (we think) an improvement on all other role-playing games. First, DragonQuest was designed to impose as few artificial restrictions on the Gamesmaster (GM) as possible. For example, a character is not limited to a particular group of abilities (known in the genre as a "character class"). A character class imposes certain arbitrary restrictions upon a character, forcing him or her into molds which have to fit, regardless of the inclination of the player. These classes came into being in other games as balancing tools, to make it just as advantageous to be a human fighter as to be a dwarven priest. In order for a character in a DragonQuest world to have as much freedom of choice as possible, anyone can be anything. Of course, the player who tries to have as versatile a character as possible will be correspondingly handicapped when he tries to rise in power. The important effect of this theme is that any character from the pages of fantasy literature can be re-created (in game terms) without causing aberrations in the game system.

Second, almost all creatures and magics are drawn from sources existing in myth, legend, or literature. We do not pretend that our fantastic inventions can compete with those reaching across the gulf of time to us, being the stuff of our heritage. Rather, we have attempted to imbue as much verisimilitude as we could, to allow those who play DragonQuest to live on a gaming table those worlds they have only been able to vicariously experience before. The fantasy of northern Europe is prevalent in these rules, because it is the common reference point shared by most of the people who will play DragonQuest. When a specific mythic creature or type of magic is reproduced, it is given all the characteristics ascribed to it in legend. When discussing the imaginary, brief mentions were often thought to be sufficient; in such cases, we try to explain as best we can. The few liberties taken were to fill the logical "holes." Norse legend and the Lesser Key of Solomon (to name but two examples) are not entirely compatible. We have attempted to give the GM a solid base to which he may add his own or other cultures' legends and magics.

A third concept in mind during the design process was to maintain the game's flexibility, and allow the GM and players to expand on the original rules. The modular presentation of skills and magic colleges makes the introduction of new ideas easy; adding a new skill or college does not necessitate changing the original ones. "

2. To define the core or "kernal" rules of DQOS project and to safeguard them from extensive modification, unless it can be shown that by doing so constitutes a lasting benefit to the DQ community. Sanctioned "official" variations on core rules must be in the form of pluggable/unpluggable or "popNdrop" modules.

While this is not intended to stop others from defining their own "house rules" that modify core rules it does say that all material developed for inclusion in this project must be workable with the core rules as defined by the project.

3. To develop guidelines for developing additional material for DQ that can be plugged in to or unplugged (popped in or dropped out) from the core rules without effecting the playability of the DQ system.

Some examples of additional material include: New Skills, New weapons and armour, New Monsters, New Magical Colleges, popular variants to core rules.

4. The DQOS project shall consist of an oversight group responsible for coordinating and communicating the project's various activities. The oversight group will report to the Internet community of DQ Players on an at least Bimonthly basis. The oversight group will resolve any rules dispute that may arise from the project taking into account the above working principles. The membership this group shall not be less than 2 members with an additional designated and project approved DQPA representative to resolve conflicts in case of a tie. In all cases, the DQPA representative is bound by the above working principles in formulating a tie-breaking decision. In the case that either party feels that they have been unjustly treated, they may appeal to the DQPA executive as a whole and have the right to have the dispute reviewed by a panel of peers chosen from DQPA membership that are neither part of the project or current DQPA executive.

5. The DQOS project will consist of several working groups as defined by the project members. It is the responsibility of these working groups to define core rules and develop rules variants for inclusion in the current DQOS release. The working groups will report its activity to the oversight group on an at least monthly basis. It is also required that the working groups garner input from the online DQ community at large regarding their activities (through the WebRPG Forum, DQN-list, and DragonQuest Newsletter). This input gathering must be logged and note made of any action arising from the feedback process. In this way, we allow the community to have a say in the direction of development.

6. The mandate of this project is for 1 calendar year starting March 01, 2000 and ending March 01, 2001. At which time the project group will review progress to date and suggest improvements, revisions, or even abandoning the project entirely if the group collectively feels that the project has not accomplished its goals. The mandate can be renewed but only on a year-by-year basis.

I thought that I would repost this to the rules group:

The approach I am advocating with DQOS or DQ4e so far is to define the
set of core rules that make up DQ4e and to keep those relatively static
unless very good reasons arise to change them.

Then try to make everything else modular so that you can popNdrop them
in or out as you will without effecting the core game mechanics. The
set of core rules could also include modular variants that act in the
same manner. For Example, it may be possible for a 1st edition
Enthusiast to develop an Action Point variant that replaces Tactical
Movement Rate in Combat with guidelines on converting monster TMR to
AP.

I could forsee that most skills and magical colleges will NOT be in the
core rules. However traditional skills and magical colleges (as well as
others) will be included in the final release as examples of how to
build such things.

Oh yes, we will also be looking forward to Rodger's Comprehensive Rules
Index.

John

... I just saw Poor Brendan's Almanac that I've got in my left hand and
Arcane Wisdom in my right and then all the archives of DQ stuff I
scrounged on the net for the past 2 years and if I think of other stuff
I know people have on their sites then imagine all this put together
and guess what! We have at least 80%-90% of DQOS almost ready to go!!!

The PBA caught me by surprise, so I won't be a push-over and try to
re-invent what's already done but maybe I can still volunteer to
complement it.

So, in light of this, I made a first attempt at it with the production
of DQ Open Source v1.0a.

I put it together very quickly, but the idea is if we merge it to Poor
B.s' A. plus a definite copy of AW (I know Craig Brain must be working
on this) and all the the other races, weapons, magics, etc, etc
available then we are really in business. Also I've got on file the
great stuff the people from New Zealand had produced... has anybody
heard of them in the past year... they sort of disappeared.

So here it is, I am open to suggestions, format is definitely nowhere
near final. The PBA in in PDF format, I don't have Acrobat, just have
the reader so what format shall we use??

http://www.iosphere.net/~eric/dq/dq_open_source_10a.zip

Snafaru
eric@iosphere.net

I will convert this to PDF when I get to work in the morning, and send
it back to you Eric. I support PDF, or HTML, because they are compact
and non, platform specific. Feel free to send me any documents that
you want converted to PDF
Juanc1
John Corey
john@westpole.com


"snafaru" <eri-@iosphere.net> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=17

> ... I just saw Poor Brendan's Almanac that I've got in my left hand

and

> Arcane Wisdom in my right and then all the archives of DQ stuff I
> scrounged on the net for the past 2 years and if I think of other

stuff

> I know people have on their sites then imagine all this put together
> and guess what! We have at least 80%-90% of DQOS almost ready to go!!!
>
> The PBA caught me by surprise, so I won't be a push-over and try to
> re-invent what's already done but maybe I can still volunteer to
> complement it.
>
> So, in light of this, I made a first attempt at it with the production
> of DQ Open Source v1.0a.
>
> I put it together very quickly, but the idea is if we merge it to Poor
> B.s' A. plus a definite copy of AW (I know Craig Brain must be working
> on this) and all the the other races, weapons, magics, etc, etc
> available then we are really in business. Also I've got on file the
> great stuff the people from New Zealand had produced... has anybody
> heard of them in the past year... they sort of disappeared.
>
> So here it is, I am open to suggestions, format is definitely nowhere
> near final. The PBA in in PDF format, I don't have Acrobat, just have
> the reader so what format shall we use??
>
> http://www.iosphere.net/~eric/dq/dq_open_source_10a.zip
>
> Snafaru
> eric@iosphere.net
>

Hullo, JohnC,

>On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:35:08 -0800, john Corey wrote:

>I would like to make the following recomendation. I think the following
>people should be members of the group:

Okay, I'm all ears... :)

>JohnR - As the leader of the DQPA he is an obvious choice. I like
>Rodgers idea of having him oversee and be the tie-breaker.

No argument here.

>Rodger Thorm - I hope I am spelling your name right! He started this
>effort, and I have gotten a lot of quality DQ advice from him.

Ditto. :)

>JohnK - He playtested the original game, what elese is there to say?

Geez, John....do you know how *long* ago that was? :) I
still have the material on the original game that we playtested, but
it's buried in some deep vault of a box in a storage room I have at
the house. I suspect there are a few others out there who worked
with the game who are more qualified than I am, but.... Still, I'm
flattered. :)

>Snafaru (Eric) - His website is excellent, and I often refer people to
>his rules clarifications.

Yep.

>ME, JohnC (Juanc1) - Though I have not played as much as you guys, I
>did originaly begin playing in 1981-82 when I bought the original hard
>cover. I am recently returned to the game and hope I can offer a fresh
>perspective.

I think the fresh perspective element is an important one to
consider, as long as we don't get away from what the game was all
about.. But you are a good choice in this. :)

Also, I have a lot of technical know-how and muscle (my

>boss has already offered to let us use our companies version management
>tools) and a lot of players to help my put stuff together.

Always useful. :)

... One more drink, and I'll be under the host. (Dorothy Parker)

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

"snafaru" <eri-@iosphere.net> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=17

> ... I just saw Poor Brendan's Almanac that I've got in my left hand

and

> Arcane Wisdom in my right and then all the archives of DQ stuff I
> scrounged on the net for the past 2 years and if I think of other

stuff

> I know people have on their sites then imagine all this put together
> and guess what! We have at least 80%-90% of DQOS almost ready to go!!!
>

The following does not bear on the great work eric has done compiling
the resources at his fingertips.

What I hope this project is about is a bit more than throwing some
rules together and saying here you go we're done. The feeling that I
get out there is that people want something that they can feel is
"official" and "up-to-date". These are vague feelings that extend
beyond more skills and colleges.

We are uneasy about accepting any work done beyond AW as somehow
"official". I am here to say we draw a line in the sand. We (the DQ
community at large) should be the final arbiters of what is official.
The large corporations don't care about this game, the designers may
care but are now busy with other aspects of their lives, it is only the
DQ community that truly cares what the future of this game will be.

How do we move DQ into the 21st Century and beyond? We grasp at a
grassroots concept that has worked in the past, Open Source. But open
source merely says you can add to a system how is quality ensured (with
software it is easy it runs or it doesn't)?

First, we have to start from a stable platform were define a solid
stable core that is virtually unchanging (practically it can change but
would require great effort to do so). Some of the things would include:
Character Generation, Combat and skill resolution, rest/recovery,
Basically Book One with parts of Book Three.

Allowable variants in the core rules could be additional races (and the
rules should allow for their easy inclusion), alternate characteristic
genration systems, alternate social background generation (for
non-western european based games), alternate weapons and armor lists
(again for non-western european based games).

Just some thoughts John

JohnR points out that we need to stick to basics, and come up with a
good set of core rules.
I agree, let's keep it to core rules, AW, and rules clarifications to
start. I think we should move beyond that later, and create expansions
that include new colleges of magic, and skills, and optional rules.
But those kind of things should be seperate plugins, that are added
later.

Juanc1





"john rauchert" <john.raucher-@sait.ab.ca> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=20

> "snafaru" <eri-@iosphere.net> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=17
> > ... I just saw Poor Brendan's Almanac that I've got in my left hand
> and
> > Arcane Wisdom in my right and then all the archives of DQ stuff I
> > scrounged on the net for the past 2 years and if I think of other
> stuff
> > I know people have on their sites then imagine all this put together
> > and guess what! We have at least 80%-90% of DQOS almost ready to

go!!!

> >
> The following does not bear on the great work eric has done compiling
> the resources at his fingertips.
>
> What I hope this project is about is a bit more than throwing some
> rules together and saying here you go we're done. The feeling that I
> get out there is that people want something that they can feel is
> "official" and "up-to-date". These are vague feelings that extend
> beyond more skills and colleges.
>
> We are uneasy about accepting any work done beyond AW as somehow
> "official". I am here to say we draw a line in the sand. We (the DQ
> community at large) should be the final arbiters of what is official.
> The large corporations don't care about this game, the designers may
> care but are now busy with other aspects of their lives, it is only

the

> DQ community that truly cares what the future of this game will be.
>
> How do we move DQ into the 21st Century and beyond? We grasp at a
> grassroots concept that has worked in the past, Open Source. But open
> source merely says you can add to a system how is quality ensured

(with

> software it is easy it runs or it doesn't)?
>
> First, we have to start from a stable platform were define a solid
> stable core that is virtually unchanging (practically it can change

but

> would require great effort to do so). Some of the things would

include:

> Character Generation, Combat and skill resolution, rest/recovery,
> Basically Book One with parts of Book Three.
>
> Allowable variants in the core rules could be additional races (and

the

> rules should allow for their easy inclusion), alternate characteristic
> genration systems, alternate social background generation (for
> non-western european based games), alternate weapons and armor lists
> (again for non-western european based games).
>
> Just some thoughts John
>
>
>

I have a strong abjection to word. It is a horible layout tool, and
too proprietary. It should be in a portable, exchangeable format.
That leaves us with PDF, HTML, or Text. As John R points out, we want
it to have a nice look and feel, so I think PDF is the way. HTML would
work, but is hard to setup for download.

I volunteer to convert files, and compile. I will be emailing A PDF of
what Snafaru put together, back to him, so he can post it.

Hullo, JohnR,

>On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:26:32 -0800, John Rauchert wrote:

>What I hope this project is about is a bit more than throwing some
>rules together and saying here you go we're done. The feeling that I
>get out there is that people want something that they can feel is
>"official" and "up-to-date". These are vague feelings that extend
>beyond more skills and colleges.

I tend to agree with you on this, but let's face it - if folks
want something "official," they aren't going to get this, simply
because it's not official, it's something a group of people on the
'net have decided to do. The only official version of this is the
stuff that we already have that was published by SPI/TSR.
"Up-to-date," on the other hand, is a more realistic image of this,
methinks, simply because the fans on the 'net who are involved in
this are basically adding a new base of material to an already
existing game.

>We are uneasy about accepting any work done beyond AW as somehow
>"official". I am here to say we draw a line in the sand. We (the DQ
>community at large) should be the final arbiters of what is official.

I agree with you here, but see my comment on "official" above.
The caveat to the whole project has to be that it *is* unoffficial.

>The large corporations don't care about this game, the designers may
>care but are now busy with other aspects of their lives, it is only the
>DQ community that truly cares what the future of this game will be.

Given the gaming industry today, this can't be all that much
of a surprise to most of us. I think that when it comes right down
to it, the only ones who do care about the game, whether it be DQ or
some other cancelled, lost-in-the-mists-of-time rpg, are the fans of
said game.

Just as long as we don't do this in a "core system" kind of
fashion that one has with GURPS and some of the other generic rpgs
out there. That isn't what DRAGONQUEST was, and it sure doesn't
live up to the spirit of DQ.

... Old heroes never die, they reappear in sequels. (M. Moorcock)

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

"john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=22

> I have a strong abjection to word. It is a horible layout tool, and
> too proprietary. It should be in a portable, exchangeable format.
> That leaves us with PDF, HTML, or Text. As John R points out, we want
> it to have a nice look and feel, so I think PDF is the way. HTML

would

> work, but is hard to setup for download.
>
> I volunteer to convert files, and compile. I will be emailing A PDF of
> what Snafaru put together, back to him, so he can post it.
>

I agree that word is not the best layout tool, but I do have a problem
using PDF at this stage because PDF is more of an end product tool when
we are going to make an actual release.

We are no where near the stage where we even have a working draft of
what DQOS will look like.

Right now we need to be able to pump files back and forth to each other
in as efficient manner as possible. Word works for me in this regard or
perhaps RTF.

Any consensus folks?

Also does everyone have the secret distributor's zipped DQ version that
we can use as a starting point plus Rodger's PBA, a version of AW, and
Eric's material DQOS material?

John R

Agreed. Let's agree on PDF for the final format, and PLAIN TEXT, for
the working versions. What do you say?


"john rauchert" <john.raucher-@sait.ab.ca> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=24

> "john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=22
> > I have a strong abjection to word. It is a horible layout tool, and
> > too proprietary. It should be in a portable, exchangeable format.
> > That leaves us with PDF, HTML, or Text. As John R points out, we

want

> > it to have a nice look and feel, so I think PDF is the way. HTML
> would
> > work, but is hard to setup for download.
> >
> > I volunteer to convert files, and compile. I will be emailing A PDF

of

> > what Snafaru put together, back to him, so he can post it.
> >
>
> I agree that word is not the best layout tool, but I do have a problem
> using PDF at this stage because PDF is more of an end product tool

when

> we are going to make an actual release.
>
> We are no where near the stage where we even have a working draft of
> what DQOS will look like.
>
> Right now we need to be able to pump files back and forth to each

other

> in as efficient manner as possible. Word works for me in this regard

or

> perhaps RTF.
>
> Any consensus folks?
>
> Also does everyone have the secret distributor's zipped DQ version

that

> we can use as a starting point plus Rodger's PBA, a version of AW, and
> Eric's material DQOS material?
>
> John R
>
>

It looks like Snafaru has already compiled the best of the net. i am
still willing to do any organizational work required, but it does not
seem like I need to comb the net for archival materials, as i had
originally agreed to do. If any of you feel that there is still a need
to do that, drop me a line, and I will do it.


"snafaru" <eri-@iosphere.net> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=13

> Hello all,
>
> just got around catching up on WebRPG messages and got here. I'm
> surprised my message about abandonware snowballed into this, this is
> great :-)
>
> As I just posted on WebRPG I volunteer to take care of Book I: Section
> V - Combat.
>
> As I did quite a bit of research on the clarification of combat rules
> and damage lately and produced a FAQ, I would like to push the effort
> further.
>
> Here's a suggestion: I could find any pertinent matter on the net, or
> have people forward me their house rules. I could sort them,

proof-read

> them, numerate them according to the numbering sequence in the

original

> rule book and publish a "pre-release/draft/open for comments or
> revision/to be approved" version on my web site.
>
> Just waiting for a word from our president and a vote of approval
> (hopefully).
>
>
> Snafaru
> eric@iosphere.net
> http://www.iosphere.net/~eric/dq
>

I would like to volunteer to put together the finished project. I have
access to just about every editing tool you can think of, for both
print and the web. And a troop of web designers dying to help out. Let
me know if you folks are interested.

JohnC

"john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=25

> Agreed. Let's agree on PDF for the final format, and PLAIN TEXT, for
> the working versions. What do you say?

Sorry to be a stick in the mud but with plain text we lose any emphasis
that we want to add to text primarily Bold and Italics. Also I always
have a problem with hard carriage returns and varying column widths
that tend to enter into documents.

It can make final layout hell when you have to remove those extra
carriage returns from every line. Rodger has some war stories about
that. That is why I suggested RTF. It allows for a minimum amount of
formatting (leaves bolding and italics intact) and it wraps so you can
more easily pour it into a layout package like pagemaker.

I believe that most word processors on most platforms support RTF.

Any other opinions?

John

Fair enough, RTF sounds good.

"john rauchert" <john.raucher-@sait.ab.ca> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=28

> "john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=25
> > Agreed. Let's agree on PDF for the final format, and PLAIN TEXT,

for

> > the working versions. What do you say?
>
> Sorry to be a stick in the mud but with plain text we lose any

emphasis

> that we want to add to text primarily Bold and Italics. Also I always
> have a problem with hard carriage returns and varying column widths
> that tend to enter into documents.
>
> It can make final layout hell when you have to remove those extra
> carriage returns from every line. Rodger has some war stories about
> that. That is why I suggested RTF. It allows for a minimum amount of
> formatting (leaves bolding and italics intact) and it wraps so you can
> more easily pour it into a layout package like pagemaker.
>
> I believe that most word processors on most platforms support RTF.
>
> Any other opinions?
>
> John
>
>
>

"john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=27

> I would like to volunteer to put together the finished project. I

have

> access to just about every editing tool you can think of, for both
> print and the web. And a troop of web designers dying to help out.

Let

> me know if you folks are interested.
>
> JohnC
>

OK consider yourself volunteered. As soon as we think we are ready to
polish off the first release, it is all yours, unless someone else is
just dying to do it?

Now all we have to decide is what the layout will look like and what we
are going to put into it. Too Easy. 8C)

JohnR

Last email before i get my shit together and do some work.
I think we need a task list. It will be much easier to volunteer for a
task, if we are able to list some of them out. Any one wana take this
one?

John K,

Your points about duplication are weel made. I had hoped to eliminate some of
the duplicate material by going through it, rather than have it all submited
to the group. In other words, that was my goal :-)


"John M. Kahane" <jkahane@comnet.ca> wrote:
Hullo, JohnC,

>On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:44:56 -0800, john Corey wrote:

>One option is to have every one post new rules and what not here, and
>certainly that shouls be done. But another idea is to comb the web for
>existing house rules, and prepare a list of the m for posting here. I
>will volunteer to do that and post a summary of my findings. Let me
>know if ya'll think that is a good idea.

This seems to be a good idea to me, although I suspect that
you may find duplicates of materials out there and all. Not that
this is a bad thing, of course, but it's something to take into
account.

... Physics and mysticism are complementary aspects in a single reality.
(Wolfgang Pauli)

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane


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JohnR

I agree completely! I think that tools can be available to those that want
them, but not nessecary to use any supplements we create.


"John Rauchert" <john.rauchert@sait.ab.ca> wrote:
"john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=3

> I propose a digital version to DQ. This version would be electronic
> (which it has to be given the format here). There is a digital

version

> of the rules (I got them from the secret distributor), and my group

and

> I have developed or enhanced many electronic tools for DQ. We could
> write the new rules to make them very easily searchable. What do you
> think?
>

Right Now Due to copyright laws we are not able to freely distribute
the digital version from the secret distributor. However, the old TSR
entity did release a statement that said you could create fan
supplements and rule variations as long as they were original.

I agree that the use of electronic tools should play some part in how
we proceed but there is probably two things that we do not want to do:

1. Alienate users by keeping those without the technology from
participating (for every person online there maybe several offline
players that want to play as well).

2. Break spirit of what makes DQ, well, DQ. A game has a feel about it
based on the way the rules are laid out presented and played. We want
to ensure that we do not break with that tradition.



John


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I will make it my task over the next month to gather URL lists, and lists of
new rules (skills, Colleges, etc) and try and come up with one that weeds out
all of the duplicates, and is as representative as possible. I will stay in
touch.



"John Rauchert" <john.rauchert@sait.ab.ca> wrote:
"john corey" <joh-@westpole.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=2

> One option is to have every one post new rules and what not here, and
> certainly that shouls be done. But another idea is to comb the web

for

> existing house rules, and prepare a list of the m for posting here. I
> will volunteer to do that and post a summary of my findings. Let me
> know if ya'll think that is a good idea.
>

One activity will certainly be to collect a list of the available house
rules and present them to the group. It would a good use of time until
we get off the ground.


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I have finished the initial re-compiling of AW and sent it out to a couple of folk to proof read, in addition to this, Chris Klug expressed an interest in this version of AW and will pass on a few comments. I asked him about writing a foreword and contributing anything he felt worthwhile. He seemed happy enough.

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"morbius" <morbiu-@venicebeach.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=36

> I have finished the initial re-compiling of AW and sent it out to a

couple of folk to proof read, in addition to this, Chris Klug expressed
an interest in this version of AW and will pass on a few comments. I
asked him about writing a foreword and contributing anything he felt
worthwhile. He seemed happy enough.

That's Great Craig another feather in your cap.

We will certainly look at making the revised AW as a whole as one of
the additional pieces that make up the DQOS release.

John

john corey <juanc-@netscape.net> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=35

> I will make it my task over the next month to gather URL lists, and

lists of

> new rules (skills, Colleges, etc) and try and come up with one that

weeds out

> all of the duplicates, and is as representative as possible. I will

stay in

> touch.
>

Thanks and "let's be careful out there".

"What ever happened to Juanc?"
"He went on the elusive DragonQuest and was never heard from again."

Maybe we will have to invent "cookie crumbs" little cookies that you
leave on web servers so we can track where you have been.

John

> Agreed. Let's agree on PDF for the final format, and PLAIN TEXT, for
> the working versions. What do you say?

Having spent many years (sporadically, I will admit... okay. Hey,
stop throwing those tomatoes!) cleaning all kinds of screenjunk off
of material in order to make it presentable for the DQ Newsletter, I
am *STRONGLY* in favor of plain text. I only have an older copy of
Word on my PC, so I have a lot of screenjunk from Snafaru's latest
project, for instance. I also did a lot of DQ stuff on my older Mac,
and may go back to that again, so once again, plain text works
best for me. And I too think that it works best for everyone's ease
of use.

--Rodger Thorm

Ok, I'll try the RTF... just give me a few days to see if it works.
Meanwhile, I'll get my hands on Acrobat.

As for submissions, you can send them to either me or John Corey, but
you may want to wait on that for a week since I'm going to try to throw
everything I got that's not copyrighted in my DQOS that I began and
forward it to John Corey for formatting. I want to just put out there
what I've got ASAP to avoid duplication.

Craig Brain, could you send me a copy of the pre-proof-read copy of AW
you got so I can temporarily replace the one I've got in my DQOS (my
e-mail: eric@iosphere.net)until you get the final.

I'm doing this like building blocks, sort of a "pre-release" if you
want, eventually we'll begin to see how things could look like even if
not final. We have to start somewhere so I'm kicking my own a$$ into it.

B.T.W. I updated my web page, removed all graphics for fast load and
put the DQ Open Source in PDF format (thanks JohnC) right at the top!
Although Acrobat sort of didn't translate some tables properly and the
Thalia font didn't make it either but I'm sure this will be easily
corrected in future releases.

http://www.iosphere.net/~eric/dq

Snafaru

"snafaru" <eri-@iosphere.net> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=40

> Ok, I'll try the RTF... just give me a few days to see if it works.
> Meanwhile, I'll get my hands on Acrobat.
>

Ok guys, I feel we are still getting a little "cart before the horse".
We have not even decided totally yet how we are going to communicate
within our group yet.

Compiling rules is fine, but our main activity, IMHO, is not to just
gather rule additions, we have the opportunity to fundamentally start
thinking about how DQ works from the guts outward.

Things like does the order in which the rules are presented in 2nd ed
DQ going to remain the same or not? There are reasons pro and con.
What rules are core to the system and what rules are plug-ins to the
system? How do plug-ins work?

To move foreword, I suggest:

Rodger check out RTF on his system. Are you running windows 95+ if so
WordPad under Accessories should read RTF files just fine. Report back
to the group if this is not the case.

Anyone else with RTF problems report them now before we become fixated
on this format. Oh yes, default font is times new roman font size is
10. Agreed? We need your opinions Now!

I nominate John Corey and Craig Brain as constituting the working group
for developing the final release document when we get to that point.

I nominate Snafaru's website to be the official place we put up all our
working documents. All documents should be clearly marked as such:

I would remove the following reference from the front page of the
current document:

"FOURTH EDITION, release Beta 1.0a
Pending DQPA revision and approval

CREATED BY THE DQ PLAYER'S ASSOCIATION"

Ease up on using the name DQ4e for now

Add the Date of the Update, rather than to try version numbering things
at this point.

Add the statement:
This is a DQOS Working Draft for review by DQPA Members and other
interested parties. It is a draft document and may be updated, replaced
or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use
DQOS Working Drafts as reference material or to cite them as other than
"work in progress". This is work in progress and does not imply
endorsement by the DQPA membership.

John

I would like to see us include them in the release but keep these as
separate addons. Arcane Wisdom has a life of its own, as I feel Poor
Brendan's Almanac may have as well (There maybe some rules we transfer
directly into main rules system and then keep the rest as the almanac).

JohnR

Example of Rules Coring

Taking our starting point as 2nd Edition. I do not forsee any
substantive changes that we may want to consider until IV. Character
Generation.

I would not add any additional Primary Characteristics and would
consider them core.

Of the Secondary Characteristics/Optional characteristics Fatigue and
Perception are core.
TMR as a core quasi characteristic??

Physical Beauty is not core make it an optional plug-in to core under
Secondary Characteristics. Add rules for creating other optional
characteristics (partly explained in [4.4] and [5.5]).

By definition plug-in optional characteristics can only have little or
no influence on the core system if ignored. The only places I can see
where PB effects the mechanical rules system is in the [18.3] Grievous
Injury Table (core), the Courtesan skill (non-core) and possibly the
Reaction Table as suggested in [4.4]. Changes need to be made in
entries 13 and 31-34 in Grievous Injury Table to read any PB
adjustments as optional. Use of PB is mandatory for courtesan skill.

So to create the Plug-In for Physical Beauty we extract the entry
[3.9], and the examples from [4.4] and [5.5] then list where this
characteristic impacts the rules system (Grievous Injury Table,
Reaction Table and Courtesan skill).

CORE SYSTEM PLUG-INS

Primary Characteristics
|
|
Secondary/Optional Characteristics ------ Optional Characteristic
Plug-In
Physical Beauty


Comments?
JohnR

I like the way JohnR is thinking here. Someone needs to compile a list
of rules, and label them as core, or non-core. That is the place to
start. Next we collect all of the rules clarifications that are out
there, and place a request on the various forums to see what rules need
clarification. Our first "product" should be a set of rules
clarifications for the core rules. We should then create
"Supplements", like a skills supplement(old and new skills), a magic
supplement, a combat rules expansion, etc. I think that is a much
better approach than owrry about the finished product.
So who wants to compile the core/non-core list, and who wants to be
incharge of compiling rules clarifications?
And does anyone else agree with what i am saying here?


"john rauchert" <john.raucher-@sait.ab.ca> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dq-rules/?start=43

> Example of Rules Coring
>
> Taking our starting point as 2nd Edition. I do not forsee any
> substantive changes that we may want to consider until IV. Character
> Generation.
>
> I would not add any additional Primary Characteristics and would
> consider them core.
>
> Of the Secondary Characteristics/Optional characteristics Fatigue and
> Perception are core.
> TMR as a core quasi characteristic??
>
> Physical Beauty is not core make it an optional plug-in to core under
> Secondary Characteristics. Add rules for creating other optional
> characteristics (partly explained in [4.4] and [5.5]).
>
> By definition plug-in optional characteristics can only have little or
> no influence on the core system if ignored. The only places I can see
> where PB effects the mechanical rules system is in the [18.3] Grievous
> Injury Table (core), the Courtesan skill (non-core) and possibly the
> Reaction Table as suggested in [4.4]. Changes need to be made in
> entries 13 and 31-34 in Grievous Injury Table to read any PB
> adjustments as optional. Use of PB is mandatory for courtesan skill.
>
> So to create the Plug-In for Physical Beauty we extract the entry
> [3.9], and the examples from [4.4] and [5.5] then list where this
> characteristic impacts the rules system (Grievous Injury Table,
> Reaction Table and Courtesan skill).
>
> CORE SYSTEM PLUG-INS
>
> Primary Characteristics
> |
> |
> Secondary/Optional Characteristics ------ Optional Characteristic
> Plug-In
> Physical Beauty
>
>
> Comments?
> JohnR
>

... acted upon the various messages flying around for the past 24 hours.

1. Got my hands on Acrobat (legal copy that an Adobe rep. gave me)

2. Crash-coursed myself in Acrobat.

3. Produce my first Acrobat PDF (DQOS r2000/02/15)

4. Corrected the mentions of 4e and other stuff like that, inserted
DQPA text suggested by JohnR.

5. Checked-out the fonts in the copy from the secret distributor. In
order to keep the format the same as the original DQ we have to use
TimesNewRoman 9 for text and Arial 9 for header/titles with bolding
where appopriate. I used TimesNewRoman 10 and Arial 10 for most of the
title page and the index. Used size 9 for the rest, and did not touch
AW since we're waiting for a final from Craig B. but I feel we should
keep the font size at 9 to keep the look and feel that we've adored for
19+ years.

6. Haven't tried RTF yet, it is my next step.

http://www.iosphere.net/~eric/dq

Snafaru

This group has taken off in amazing directions all at once. I am
more than
a little bit overwhelmed by it all, frankly.

I should begin by apologizing to all of you for my own level of
involvement.
I started this thing, but I am not going to be the most active
participant for
a while. Without going into loads of detail, I am in the process of
selling
my house in one city, moving to another city 5 hours away, looking for
a
new house, and getting ready for the birth of my first child.

We are all a bit overwhelmed by the density of material we are faced
with
here, but I think that this depth just goes to show how much this is an
idea
whose time has come.

I will be away for the next two weekends in order to deal with moving
out of
my old house. After that, I will try to check in every day or two (at
least until the baby is born).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that this group
requires my presence in order to function. I will try to keep my hand
in,
but let's all try to sustain a level of communication and activity to
keep
this moving.

--Rodger Thorm

Hullo, JohnR,

>On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:01:23 -0800, John Rauchert wrote:

>I agree that word is not the best layout tool, but I do have a problem
>using PDF at this stage because PDF is more of an end product tool when
>we are going to make an actual release.

Agreed. PDF is the final format tool, methinks.

>Right now we need to be able to pump files back and forth to each other
>in as efficient manner as possible. Word works for me in this regard or
>perhaps RTF.

>Any consensus folks?

I would prefer to work with RTF, or perhaps straight text to
minimize the size of files at the this point. Definitely not Word.
:(

>Also does everyone have the secret distributor's zipped DQ version that
>we can use as a starting point plus Rodger's PBA, a version of AW, and
>Eric's material DQOS material?

I don't have the secret distributor's zipped DQ version that
has been mentioned, but I do have the other stuff mentioned above.

... Puritanism is the fear that someone, somewhere might be having fun.

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

Hullo, JohnC,

>On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:53:59 -0800, john Corey wrote:

>I would like to volunteer to put together the finished project. I have
>access to just about every editing tool you can think of, for both
>print and the web. And a troop of web designers dying to help out. Let
>me know if you folks are interested.

Sounds good to me, John...

...even if I haven't figured out what I'm supposed to be doing
here. :)

... "Some days, try as you will, nothing goes wrong." - Nathan Spring (SC)

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

Hullo, JohnR,

>On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:26:02 -0800, John Rauchert wrote:

>Sorry to be a stick in the mud but with plain text we lose any emphasis
>that we want to add to text primarily Bold and Italics. Also I always
>have a problem with hard carriage returns and varying column widths
>that tend to enter into documents.

While I agree with you about the carriage returns and the
varying column widths, that can be cleaned up by setting a series of
rules and parameters for the text files. Insofar as bold, italics,
and the like are concerned, just put an <i> or <b> or <indented
paragraph> note into the document in the correct places to set up
pre-format appearance and parameters for later.

>It can make final layout hell when you have to remove those extra
>carriage returns from every line. Rodger has some war stories about
>that. That is why I suggested RTF. It allows for a minimum amount of
>formatting (leaves bolding and italics intact) and it wraps so you can
>more easily pour it into a layout package like pagemaker.

>I believe that most word processors on most platforms support RTF.

While this is true about RTF, some word processors can't
accomodate newer versions of RTF. I'm sure we can do something
about this minor problem, however...

... The basilisk is nature's own way of getting stoned.

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane

Hullo, JohnC,

>On 10 Feb 00 20:25:39 PST, John Corey wrote:

>Your points about duplication are weel made. I had hoped to eliminate some of
>the duplicate material by going through it, rather than have it all submited
>to the group. In other words, that was my goal :-)

Yes, I think this is pretty good as ideas go, since it will
eliminate the duplicate material. When there is material that is
duplicate, but not exactly the same, perhaps we'll have to analyze
and decide on which version, form, or shape to use of the two
materials - or even some synthesis in specific cases.

... "The Black Owls? Didn't we stop them *last* week?" - Moranna, Fallen Magdalite

JohnK
jkahane@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane