Messages in dqn-list group. Page 34 of 80.

Group: dqn-list Message: 1658 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 3/12/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
Group: dqn-list Message: 1659 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/12/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1660 From: D. Cameron King Date: 3/12/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
Group: dqn-list Message: 1661 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
Group: dqn-list Message: 1662 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
Group: dqn-list Message: 1663 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1664 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1665 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
Group: dqn-list Message: 1666 From: Jamie Coleman Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1667 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1668 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 3/16/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1669 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 3/16/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1670 From: Davis, John R Date: 3/17/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1671 From: J. Corey Date: 3/17/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1672 From: Steven Wiles Date: 3/17/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1673 From: J. Corey Date: 3/17/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1674 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 3/18/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1675 From: terryintransit Date: 3/18/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1676 From: terryintransit Date: 3/18/2004
Subject: Namer magics
Group: dqn-list Message: 1677 From: Jason Winter Date: 3/18/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1678 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 3/18/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1679 From: Jason Winter Date: 3/18/2004
Subject: College of Water Magics - Modified
Group: dqn-list Message: 1680 From: Jason Winter Date: 3/18/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1681 From: J. Corey Date: 3/18/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Group: dqn-list Message: 1682 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 3/19/2004
Subject: Re: Naval Combat Rules
Group: dqn-list Message: 1683 From: rthorm Date: 3/19/2004
Subject: Water Magics
Group: dqn-list Message: 1684 From: David Chappell Date: 3/19/2004
Subject: Re: Water Magics
Group: dqn-list Message: 1685 From: David Chappell Date: 3/24/2004
Subject: OpenRPG
Group: dqn-list Message: 1686 From: mike.dunne@ntlworld.com Date: 3/24/2004
Subject: Re: looking for a pdf of the enchanted woods
Group: dqn-list Message: 1687 From: J. Corey Date: 3/24/2004
Subject: Re: looking for a pdf of the enchanted woods
Group: dqn-list Message: 1688 From: andy Date: 3/25/2004
Subject: Re: looking for a pdf of the enchanted woods
Group: dqn-list Message: 1689 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 3/26/2004
Subject: DQ Bundle on eBay
Group: dqn-list Message: 1690 From: lukeon58 Date: 4/1/2004
Subject: Trying to developed some skills
Group: dqn-list Message: 1691 From: rthorm Date: 4/1/2004
Subject: Ares Magazines Proposal
Group: dqn-list Message: 1692 From: HankBooth@aol.com Date: 4/1/2004
Subject: Re: Ares Magazines Proposal
Group: dqn-list Message: 1693 From: Esko Halttunen Date: 4/2/2004
Subject: Re: Ares Magazines Proposal
Group: dqn-list Message: 1694 From: Esko Halttunen Date: 4/2/2004
Subject: Re: Water Magics
Group: dqn-list Message: 1695 From: Esko Halttunen Date: 4/2/2004
Subject: DQ - Dominions
Group: dqn-list Message: 1696 From: D. Cameron King Date: 4/2/2004
Subject: Re: Water Magics
Group: dqn-list Message: 1697 From: Jamie Coleman Date: 4/2/2004
Subject: Re: Water Magics
Group: dqn-list Message: 1698 From: phaeton_nz@yahoo.co.nz Date: 4/2/2004
Subject: Re: Water Magics
Group: dqn-list Message: 1699 From: mormonyoyoman Date: 4/2/2004
Subject: Ares on CD?
Group: dqn-list Message: 1700 From: Esko Halttunen Date: 4/3/2004
Subject: Re: Water Magics
Group: dqn-list Message: 1701 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 4/5/2004
Subject: Re: Water Magics
Group: dqn-list Message: 1702 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 4/5/2004
Subject: Re: Spell of Dehydration
Group: dqn-list Message: 1703 From: rthorm Date: 4/8/2004
Subject: ARES Compilation Project
Group: dqn-list Message: 1704 From: lukeon58 Date: 4/9/2004
Subject: Draft skills for archer, samurai & Ninja
Group: dqn-list Message: 1705 From: David Chappell Date: 4/19/2004
Subject: Game worlds by other publishers
Group: dqn-list Message: 1706 From: Jason Winter Date: 4/19/2004
Subject: Re: Game worlds by other publishers
Group: dqn-list Message: 1707 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 4/19/2004
Subject: Re: Game worlds by other publishers



Group: dqn-list Message: 1658 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 3/12/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Steven Wiles <mortdemuerte@y...> wrote:
>
> In our groups, we ruled that more than about a pound
> of cold iron on a person kept you from casting. In
> other words, mages could have daggers on them, and
> that's about it.

I wouldn't allow even a dagger and would say an arrow head (3oz sounds
good to me) would be enough to stop spell casting

> I've often wondered what the numbers would be for
> things like Base Chance, Exp Mult, etc. if one applied
> the Arcane Wisdom rules for making new spells to old
> spells. I've never had the gumption/free time to do
> it myself. Has anyone else?

Yes I've done one college, lesser summonings, well it was there in the
same book. As a rule the ep multiples, range and duration were pritty
much as the rules in AW. The base chances were much easier in the
college than as worked out by the spell generation rules. Anything
from 2x to 5x easier

David
Group: dqn-list Message: 1659 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/12/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Steven Wiles wrote:
>
> Oh, I had the same idea. I had an Enchanter /
> Mechanician character, but that campaign didn't run
> long enough to develop him. In my mind I had already
> planned out his unstoppable army of magically animated
> machinae minions. :) As you say, one can dream.
>
> Mort

I was actually picturing mechanical flying monkeys, but then, my wife
tells me I'm a bit off. ^_^

Cheers!
Jim
--
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes.
- Desiderius Erasmus
Group: dqn-list Message: 1660 From: D. Cameron King Date: 3/12/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
>From: "dbarrass_2000" <david.barrass@ed.ac.uk>:
>
>--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Steven Wiles <mortdemuerte@y...> wrote:
> >
> > In our groups, we ruled that more than about a pound
> > of cold iron on a person kept you from casting. In
> > other words, mages could have daggers on them, and
> > that's about it.
>
>I wouldn't allow even a dagger and would say an arrow head (3oz sounds
>good to me) would be enough to stop spell casting

I've always taken a position between these two: a dagger is too
much, but a few arrowheads is too little. I just don't like the idea
that thunking an arrow (especially a *single* arrow) into an Adept
will block his spellcasting. Essentially, my ruling has been that the
amount of cold iron in arrowheads hits its mana-blocking critical
mass at just about the same point where the arrow-wounds will
kill the Adept, anyway. (I would, no doubt, take a more
exacting approach if any of my players ever tried to *equip* his
Adept with normal steel-headed arrows, but as long as they're
following the spirit of the cold iron rules, I'm satisfied.)

-Cameron

_________________________________________________________________
Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech
Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx
Group: dqn-list Message: 1661 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
I think this is an artifact of the change from DQ 1st Edition to 2nd
Edition - in 1st Edition you could get to rank 6 - in 2nd you need 8
but a lot of the weapons don't go to 8.

I have let people get 14 things at rank 6 to make hero instead if
they so choose, and that seemed to 'fix' this problem.



--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Arturo Algueiro Melo <aleam00@y...>
wrote:
> Hi, people...
> The problem I see on this subject arises when the non-adept wants
to become hero. It is very
> difficult and time consuming to get 8 skills at level 8. On the
other hand, mages get level 8 in a
> matter of days, and with less XP expenditure.
> Best regards... Arturo
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias.
> Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com
Group: dqn-list Message: 1662 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
non-munchins that are true die-hard role-players don't care
as much and for them 'rules' are never really a problem.

Rules really only matter for 'munchins', 'rules lawyers'
or when half the group are 'otimizers' and half are
'don't care' and then the differences become a problem.

In one of the test campaigns, long after the test,
I was told of a character that had not made hero for
many many years of play and the player didn't care
(non - adept).

So some of the players in some of the test campaigns
didn't really push the system enough to find some
of the holes or inequities - in a sense the players
were 'too good' to truly play test the rules and possible
rules glitches that existed. IMO that's why some were
never found. I remember mentioning one of the comparisons
in terms of damage vs. points to rank and % for one spell
in one college vs. another to one of the designers and
they said that noone in their groups had ever really
ranked that spell high enough to notice the problem.

In one of my early group it got ranked high and fast and got noticed
quickly as a potential problem.

DMU

--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, deven@b... wrote:
> On 5 Feb 2004 at 5:16, David Chappell wrote:
>
> > --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Arturo Algueiro Melo
<aleam00@y...>
> > wrote: > Hi, people... > The problem I see on this subject arises
when
> > the non-adept wants to become hero. It is very > difficult and
time
> > consuming to get 8 skills at level 8. On the other hand, mages get
> > level 8 in a > matter of days, and with less XP expenditure. >
Best
> > regards... Arturo >
> >
> > The problem is not really EP cost in and of itself, but how the
time
> > factor impacts on EP cost. For example:
> >
> > You have two characters at Mercenary level. One is an adept and
the
> > other isn't. The adept spends one day and 50 experience points to
get
> > some minor spell up to rank 1. The non-adept spends 25 EP and 2
weeks
> > to get dagger to rank 1. Now the adept has 13 days unaccounted
for. He
> > could possibly adventure during that time and not only get more
> > experience but also be able to raise that spell yet another rank.
Or
> > he could just spend those 13 days training for experience,
gaining 195
> > EPs.
> >
> > The way my gaming group always handled this problem is by
requiring
> > that at least half of the abilities used to achieve adventurer or
hero
> > be skills, weapons or rituals. Adepts still reach these milestones
> > slightly ahead of non-adepts, but they have so many more
abilities to
> > spend experience on that it ends up not mattering.
> >
> > -David
>
> If the group is a bunch of munchkins and all they are worried about
is
> getting to hero class as fast as possible, yes the difference is
very great
> and will be viewed as a "problem" by the munchkins. However, if
the
> players are really roleplaying, and the person who plays the adept
> realizes that they really do need Horsemanship, that they really do
> need other skills to have a well rounded character, then they are
not
> going to push to get to hero asap. What good is an adept that
can't ride
> with the party, can't bind wounds, etc? I played an adept, and it
was a
> lot of fun to flesh out the character and not just ramp up spells
to rank 8.
Group: dqn-list Message: 1663 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
They are certainly not all 'perfectly balanced' but E&E is certainly
not week - it is one of the more powerful ones but is a bit slower to
advance. Fire magics is the most damage intensive but can be fixed by
the GM by using small rooms and some flame resistant opposition.

Water Magics is tough to make feel as effective unless the pc's are
doing a campaign basically around some islands or spend a lot of time
at sea.

I did for my house rules go through *all* the colleges and try to
balance them a *little* bit, going over all the spell percentages and
such and fixing egregious errors, adding or removing a spell here or
there - in some cases just deliberately removing some 'duplicates' so
that some colleges were a bit more distinctive (finding an alternate
spell that was as effective but also more 'distinctive').

After that I never really had that much of a problem.

Oddly enough, one of the least used but most powerful colleges as
written is the college of Illusions.

The 'black colleges' were clearly aimed at being 'opposition' to the
PC's more than 'pc colleges', so they can get out of hand if abused
by the GM, rather instantly
: summon a devil, having him teach you rank 10 or 20 with a skill,
and you're ahead of the campaign right away.
: repeat, have him get (steal) you great armor or weapons...
: repeat, have them kill off the fellow party members and take their
wealth...

etc.

I dealt with that by having 'evil magicians' being outcasts and
basically 'outlaws' of the lands so it wasn't practical to overtly
practice evil magics as a PC. Eventually you'd have every 'knight'
or 'good magician' in the land looking for you.

I also enforced the idea that folks that claimed to be 'evil
magicians' had in fact gotten their powers from the 'forces of
darkness' and in fact had to act the part. So if they wanted to be
evil, they had to go all out. Then they had to be secretive enough
that limited their 'munchkin fighting' ability.

Necromancers are the one where the description of the spell effects
doesn't explicitly require you to 'act evil' - it's sort of like a
different set of SFX for E&E almost. So with this I also
used 'campaign lore' to balance this: Necromancers were doing dark
magics and excessive use of it brought evil along with it - it
attracted evil. And of course 'good' magicians and good 'knights'
that hunted evil magicians were always on the lookout for the effects
of necromancers - the special effects were known and anyone caught
using such magics was subject to capture and arrest (or worse).

The ones in 'Arcane Wisdom', as republished in the TSR edition,
were just plain broken from a play-balance viewpoint. I scrapped them
and started over with all of them. This was partly as I had already
written these before I got a copy of arcane wisdom but also because I
did the numbers (at various experience point levels) and saw just how
broken they were. The Rune Mage we tried once and only once. The GM
of that campaign agreed it was very very broken.
Group: dqn-list Message: 1664 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
My first and most powerful adept PC was a shadow weaver.

In fact, another player in that campaign, of character
that was of the *fire magics college* was so suitably impressed
that when the next campaign started, *he* chose a shadow weaver
as his first PC :) Note that at the time we started the 2nd
campaign his Fire Adept had Dragon Flames on the order
of Rank 12-14 and had all the SK spells in the book, with
at least half a dozen over rank 10, and Investment Ritual
at Rank 10 or there-abouts also. And he considered my
Adept (with actually somewhat less Experience points and of
course lower over-all damage potential) quite powerful.

So I'd doubt one could say Celestial Magics was a weak college
unless the player didn't know how to use it or the GM
never gave out a comparative number of SK spells as they
did for the other adepts they are comparing against.

DMU

--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@s...> wrote:
> saying. At least, I couldn't see it. Frankly, I
> always thought the College of Celestial Magics was the
> weakest, due to their limitations based on daylight,
> shadow, and such. But, frankly, the differences
> in "power" between the Colleges seemed minor at best
> and mainly related to the creativity of the Adept.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim
> --
> "It's better to light one candle
> than to curse the darkness."
> -Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
> http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 1665 From: uniond Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Non-adept compensation
This was one of many the reasons why the rules (arcane wisdom) are
not play balanced - the original rules are a lot more balanced than
this. So of course it was easier to modify the arcane wisdom spell
creation rules to average what's in the existing game than to rewrite
the whole game!

I also use a general GM rule:

Any new spell should be compared against existing spells - It can be
no *more* powerful per xpm and base chance than an existing spell,
and should in general come out as similar as possible for the purpose
of play balance.

So the GM needs to 'tinker' with the results to keep them balanced
for the campaign, otherwise you have the 'DC Heroes' problem - 'known
stuff' is limited so all 'new stuff' becomes godlike powerful by
comparison and breaks the campaign.


--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "dbarrass_2000" <david.barrass@e...>
the
> same book. As a rule the ep multiples, range and duration were
pritty
> much as the rules in AW. The base chances were much easier in the
> college than as worked out by the spell generation rules. Anything
> from 2x to 5x easier
>
> David
Group: dqn-list Message: 1666 From: Jamie Coleman Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
uniond wrote:

>Oddly enough, one of the least used but most powerful colleges as
>written is the college of Illusions.
>
>
*shudder*

We had some illusionists that were a lot of fun, and then we had some
that got downright obscenely abusive. I recall much debating over
this college early on in this list, too. *grin*

Illusions and Naming I always felt were potentially the most powerful
because they were the most open-ended, which also made them the most
difficult for most players or GMs to use.
Group: dqn-list Message: 1667 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/15/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
uniond wrote:
> My first and most powerful adept PC was a shadow weaver.

<snipped for brevity>

> So I'd doubt one could say Celestial Magics was a weak college
> unless the player didn't know how to use it or the GM
> never gave out a comparative number of SK spells as they
> did for the other adepts they are comparing against.
>
> DMU

That's actually why I said what I did about the relative power levels
being fairly equal. No matter what FRPG I play, I always end up playing
wizards of one kind or another. Why? Well, I just usually got "more"
out of spells than the rest of the players I played with. It's really a
matter of understanding the basic sciences well and then being creative
with what you've got. In any given campaign, any given College could be
the most powerful. It just depends on how well the Adepts are played.
I just always felt that the Adepts working with the biggest, all-around
restrictions were the Celestial College Adepts. Sure, there are ways
around it, most of which make for interesting role-playing, but the
characters *did* have to deal with the restriction.

That's just my take on it. YMMV.
Cheers!
Jim
--
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes.
- Desiderius Erasmus
Group: dqn-list Message: 1668 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 3/16/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
I once played in a campain with a party consisting of a Greater
Summoner, Black Mage and Necromancer (me). We were evil to the core
and got powerfull quickly, but it didn't last long as the local town
got a few milita together and wiped us - a relief to all the players
really. This is one of the things I like about DQ, even the really
powerfull can still be taken out by enough townsmen

David

--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "uniond" <d.union@v...> wrote:

> The 'black colleges' were clearly aimed at being 'opposition' to the
> PC's more than 'pc colleges', so they can get out of hand if abused
> by the GM, rather instantly
> : summon a devil, having him teach you rank 10 or 20 with a skill,
> and you're ahead of the campaign right away.
> : repeat, have him get (steal) you great armor or weapons...
> : repeat, have them kill off the fellow party members and take their
> wealth...
>
> etc.
>
> I dealt with that by having 'evil magicians' being outcasts and
> basically 'outlaws' of the lands so it wasn't practical to overtly
> practice evil magics as a PC. Eventually you'd have every 'knight'
> or 'good magician' in the land looking for you.
>
> I also enforced the idea that folks that claimed to be 'evil
> magicians' had in fact gotten their powers from the 'forces of
> darkness' and in fact had to act the part. So if they wanted to be
> evil, they had to go all out. Then they had to be secretive enough
> that limited their 'munchkin fighting' ability.
>
> Necromancers are the one where the description of the spell effects
> doesn't explicitly require you to 'act evil' - it's sort of like a
> different set of SFX for E&E almost. So with this I also
> used 'campaign lore' to balance this: Necromancers were doing dark
> magics and excessive use of it brought evil along with it - it
> attracted evil. And of course 'good' magicians and good 'knights'
> that hunted evil magicians were always on the lookout for the effects
> of necromancers - the special effects were known and anyone caught
> using such magics was subject to capture and arrest (or worse).
Group: dqn-list Message: 1669 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 3/16/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "uniond" <d.union@v...> wrote:

> The ones in 'Arcane Wisdom', as republished in the TSR edition,
> were just plain broken from a play-balance viewpoint. I scrapped them
> and started over with all of them. This was partly as I had already
> written these before I got a copy of arcane wisdom but also because I
> did the numbers (at various experience point levels) and saw just how
> broken they were. The Rune Mage we tried once and only once. The GM
> of that campaign agreed it was very very broken.

I have never liked the College of Rune Magic. What did you do to fix
them? Any chance of posting the details?

Were you an original play tester? If you were can I have your
permission to get off my knees :--) Do you have any other bits and
pieces of DQ that didn't make it into published books?

David
Group: dqn-list Message: 1670 From: Davis, John R Date: 3/17/2004
Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
Attachments :
    I use an excel spreadsheet for character sheets. It auto calculates xp and
    such. With the same stats the celestial magician times romp to 8 in rank4
    and rank 8 in pretty useful well fast compared to fire, necromancey etc. XP
    point for xp point celestial is tops.

    JohnD

    -----Original Message-----
    From: uniond [mailto:d.union@verizon.net]
    Sent: Mon 15/03/2004 20:19
    To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
    Cc:
    Subject: [DQN-list] Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges






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    Group: dqn-list Message: 1671 From: J. Corey Date: 3/17/2004
    Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
    One thing that water magics does not have is a "everyday" attack spell.
    All of the other elemental colleges have them in one form or another.
    This has always made me curious. I had always dream of an Earthsea
    type water campaign, where someone might actually be a Water Mage.

    On Mar 11, 2004, at 4:21 PM, David Chappell wrote:

    >
    > > I never saw anyone pick Water magics, either.   Even in a water
    > heavy
    > > world, I'd personally be more inclined towards Air than Water,
    > because
    > > you've still got some good ship-friendly spells plus more
    > generally
    > > useful (and aggressive) ones.
    >
    > I agree, Water Magics doesn't have a lot to draw the adventuring
    > type. It makes for great NPCs, though.
    >
    > > E&E occasionally struck me as being potentially the most
    > powerful.  It's
    > > been a while since I've looked through the rules, but I recall a
    > player
    > > making hellishly good use of some of the spells in there -- like
    > the
    > > speed spell, invisibility, and then wasn't there an enhance
    > enchantment
    > > spell?   The effects aren't as direct as the other colleges, but
    > they
    > > had a much more impressive cumulative effect on the party's
    > abilities.
    >
    > Right. Enchanters can be pretty nasty at higher levels on their own,
    > but what they do to the power level of a party is just insane.
    >
    > > The Celestial magics was popular in our group.  It had, IMO, one
    > of the
    > > best blends of spells, which offset the environmental penalties.  
    > Our
    > > group tended a bit more towards skulking than having big stand up
    > fights
    > > out in the sunshine though. ;)
    > >
    >
    > Celestial Dark was always very popular in my groups. Spell of
    > Darkness has a high base chance and a low cost and can be used to
    > offset those pesky daylight penalties. A clever shadow weaver can
    > usually make things beneficial for himself, too. I would think that
    > Star Mages would be the most limited, since there is little they can
    > do to affect their modifiers. I can't say for absolute certain,
    > though, since in all the games I've run or played in, I've never
    > seen one played. But Dark Mages always seemed to me to be a
    > compromise between the raw power of an elemental and the utility of
    > a thaum. They can't dish out as much damage as an Air or Fire mage
    > and they don't have a spell for every situation like Enchanters, but
    > they are definitely close behind in both categories.
    >
    > I wish I could pick a favorite, but it keeps changing depending on
    > my mood. That's one of the things I enjoy about DragonQuest, though.
    > It is so easy to tailor a character's abilities to the personality
    > you want them to have.
    >
    > -David
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
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    >
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1672 From: Steven Wiles Date: 3/17/2004
    Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
    --- "J. Corey" <john@dragonquestadventures.com> wrote:
    > One thing that water magics does not have is a
    > "everyday" attack spell.
    > All of the other elemental colleges have them in

    Yes, I've noticed that about the College as well. I
    think it's the main reason so few people ever want to
    be Water Mages. I don't think you can underestimate
    the overall helpfulness of a character who can heal
    the party and make them physically stronger on a daily
    basis. And in a naval combat (on those rare occasions
    of a water campaign), I don't think anyone can sink a
    ship faster than a Water Mage. But when melee combat
    starts, the Water Mage has basically nothing to do but
    duck. Even though its a -very- helpful college, most
    people I know chafe at inactivity during combat. When
    its all said and done, there's nothing quite as
    satisying to a mage as blowing an enemy to blood
    chunks or white ash with your spells. Water Magics
    just doesn't seem to have that. I've thought that one
    simple addition, a Water Bolt spell or somesuch, would
    make the college much more generally palatable.

    Steven Wiles

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    Group: dqn-list Message: 1673 From: J. Corey Date: 3/17/2004
    Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
    > --- "J. Corey" <john@dragonquestadventures.com> wrote:
    > > One thing that water magics does not have is a
    > > "everyday" attack spell.
    > >   All of the other elemental colleges have them in
    >
    >   I've thought that one
    > simple addition, a Water Bolt spell or somesuch, would
    > make the college much more generally palatable.
    >
    > Steven Wiles
    >

    Has anyone contemplated this addition? Or has anyone created it?
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1674 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 3/18/2004
    Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
    I created a Spell of Dehydration for Water Magics. The underlying idea is that all living things are composed of water(I can't remember the percentage, but humans are like 75% water). The Spell of Dehydration simple causes the water in a being to evaporate. As everyone knows, when you become dehydrated, you become weak and tired(i.e. fatigue loss). I think I just used the same guidelines as Bolt of Energy. I can post my actual write-up when I get home tonight.

    Stephen

    ________________________________________________________________
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    Group: dqn-list Message: 1675 From: terryintransit Date: 3/18/2004
    Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
    These are spells that were using in our modified ruleset. Im not sure
    if they exist in, or are variation of the core rules.

    Dehydration (S-2)
    Range: 20 feet + 20 / Rank
    Duration: Immediate
    Experience Multiple: 500
    Base Chance: 1%
    Resist: Active, Passive
    Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap
    Target: Object, Entity
    Effects: The target of this spell must successfully
    resist or have all of the water removed from their
    body, resulting in instant mummification. The target's
    corpse will remain preserved indefinitely (if
    kept dry, since little or no tissue damage occurs). After
    rehydration the body will be able to be resurrected
    as if it had just died. If the target is formerly or never
    living, the Adept receives +40% on the Base Chance.
    When used in this manner the spell can be used to
    dehydrate such things as food for preservation, such
    things lasting indefinitely if kept dry.

    Geyser (S-4)
    Range: 20 feet + 20 / Rank
    Duration: 30 seconds + 30 / Rank
    Experience Multiple: 350
    Base Chance: 15%
    Resist: Active, Passive
    Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap
    Target: Ground
    Effects: The Adept calls forth from the ground 1 (+ 1
    / Rank) jets of hot steam and mud. Each jet must appear
    in an adjacent hex to at least one other jet. Any
    Entity occupying an affected hex must resist or suffer
    [D - 4] (+ 1 / 2 or fraction Ranks), half if resisted
    (round down), damage, per pulse. If a character resists
    they are allowed an automatic hex of movement.
    It is necessary to resist for each separate hex passed
    through, however only 1 resistance check is necessary
    for an individual hex regardless of the duration it
    is occupied for. Magical Waterproofing or Protection
    from Normal Fire will shield a character completely
    from any damage


    --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "J. Corey" <john@d...> wrote:
    >
    >
    > > --- "J. Corey" <john@d...> wrote:
    > > > One thing that water magics does not have is a
    > > > "everyday" attack spell.
    > > >   All of the other elemental colleges have them in
    > >
    > >   I've thought that one
    > > simple addition, a Water Bolt spell or somesuch, would
    > > make the college much more generally palatable.
    > >
    > > Steven Wiles
    > >
    >
    > Has anyone contemplated this addition? Or has anyone created it?
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1676 From: terryintransit Date: 3/18/2004
    Subject: Namer magics
    Hi All,

    Im looking for any interesting Namer magics that anyone written up.
    If you have a change could you send it out, thanks.

    Terry
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1677 From: Jason Winter Date: 3/18/2004
    Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
    >>I always figured that a more water-based game world
    >>would favor Water Magics. You know, an island chain,
    >>or a group of sailing explorers. OTH, when I
    >>read "Enhancing the Enchanter" I always figured he'd
    >>used an older version of the rules or something. The
    >>Bantam 2nd edition just didn't bear out what he was
    >>saying. At least, I couldn't see it. Frankly, I
    >>always thought the College of Celestial Magics was the
    >>weakest, due to their limitations based on daylight,
    >>shadow, and such. But, frankly, the differences
    >>in "power" between the Colleges seemed minor at best
    >>and mainly related to the creativity of the Adept.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >I never saw anyone pick Water magics, either. Even in a water heavy
    >world, I'd personally be more inclined towards Air than Water, because
    >you've still got some good ship-friendly spells plus more generally
    >useful (and aggressive) ones.

    The mage in my current campaign is playing a Water Mage and has been for
    the past 4 years or so. The campaign, for the most part is a sea based
    campaign with the group being the owner of a ship and they spend most of
    their time sailing the seas in search of adventure. That said, and I think
    the player that plays the Water mage would agree, the class is very weak,
    even in a sea based campaign. We have modified some of the spells quite a
    bit and added several new spells to help, but even then, I think if the
    player had to do it again, he would pick another college (I could be wrong
    on this). By far the most common spell he casts is Bolt of Water which is
    very nasty I must admit.

    If there is interest, I could post our version of the College of Water Magics.

    For that matter, I would be interested to hear of some others of you if you
    feel the new spells we've added fit with the spirit of the college.

    Any interest?





    Jason Winter
    Alarian@direcway.com
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1678 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 3/18/2004
    Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
    Jason,

    I would be interested in seeing what your group has come up with. Since your group is involved in a sea-based game, have you developed any naval rules? (i.e. ship-to-ship battles) If so, I would be very interested in seeing them. I started on some rules a while back and didn't get very far.

    Stephen

    ________________________________________________________________
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    Group: dqn-list Message: 1679 From: Jason Winter Date: 3/18/2004
    Subject: College of Water Magics - Modified
    Hope this file isn't too big. Here is a copy of my version of the College
    of Watermagics. Hopefully the formatting won't make things too bad.



    THE COLLEGE OF WATER MAGICS

    The college of water magics is concerned with the shaping of the powers
    in the element of water.

    Mages of this college may only practice their arts if they
    are in contact with or near water. They may never practice their arts in a
    vacuum or a totally waterless place. They may not summon a water-dwelling
    creatures into a area that does not contain a body of water large
    enough for the water-dwelling creature to immerse itself totally. They
    may never use their magic while on land(in a non-arid area) but suffer some
    diminution in their abilities.

    The following numbers are added to the base chance of
    performing any talent, spell or ritual of the college of water magics:
    Mage is in physical contact with a body of water +20
    Mage is on board a ship on
    water +10
    All bodies of water in vicinity of mage are frozen +5
    Mage is on land but in sight of a body of water +5
    Mage is on land and not in sight of a body of water* -10
    A body of water is a sea, lake, ocean, river, well, stream
    or other feature containing a large amount of water (1000 gallons or more)
    or existing as part of a larger system or network of waterways. A barrel,
    bucket, or tun of water does not qualify as a body of water. All modifiers
    are cumulative
    * For a Water mages spells to function, the mage must be within 1 mile of a
    body of water per mage level. Thus, a level 9 Water Mage must be within 9
    miles of a body of water to cast their spells.


    Talents


    1. Predict Weather
    The mage predicts with some accuracy what the weather will be like
    over the ensuing three days in the area within the range of his
    talent. The water mage must be at sea(on a ocean, sea, or large lake for
    the talent to operate. The talent operates effectively within a radius of
    10 miles of the adept(+10 miles per rank of the mage). The Mage’s player
    announces that he is checking the weather and then rolls a D100. If the
    roll is equal to or less than the characters modified perception he is
    successful in making a prediction. In addition to other modifiers
    affecting the operation of this talent, the player adds 5% for each rank
    he has achieved with the talent. If the mage is unsuccessful the DM
    secretly rolls a D100 to check the accuracy of the prediction. The
    following results may occur.


    DICE ACCURACY

    01-15 Totally wrong (opposite of the prediction occurs)
    16-45 Generally incorrect (fairly wide divergence)
    46-85 Generally correct (close, but not totally accurate)
    86-100 Almost totally accurate (say within 1 degree)

    Following this dice roll, the DM delivers the prediction arrived at by the
    characters as if it were generally correct. The workings of this talent
    may not be resisted. The EXP Multiple for this talent is 75.

    2. Sensing the Call of the Water
    This talent allows the Adept to sense major bodies of water,
    sensing all within a 10 mile range ( + 2 per Rank), with an accuracy of [PC
    + (5 * Rank)]. The Adept will not know the best route to arrive at the
    water, only the exact direction and distance. The experience multiple for
    this Talent is 125.

    3. Ultravision
    The Water Mage is able to see into the ultraviolet spectrum. As
    long as he is not under ground, he may see in the dark as if it were
    twilight, out to a range of 10 +10/rank (+25/rank if underwater)
    feet. This talent is very effective for seeing underwater. The experience
    point cost of this talent is 125.


    General Knowledge Spells

    1. Calm Waters
    Range: 90 feet + 90 feet/rank
    Duration: 30 min + 15min/rank
    EXP Multiple: 100
    Base Chance: 30%
    Save: None
    Effects: The mage reduces the height of all waves within range by 1 foot
    (+1 foot per rank) and reduces the size of all swells by 1 foot per 2
    ranks(minimum 1 foot). It takes 30 minutes – 1 minute per rank for the
    full effects of this spell to come into play. So a Water Mage who is rank
    15 in this spell attempts to Calm Waters, it will take 15 minutes (30
    minutes – 15 ranks in this spell) for the full effects of the spell to come
    into effect.

    2. Wave Making
    Range: 90 feet+90 feet/lvl
    Duration: 30 min + 15 min/rank
    EXP Multiple: 125
    Base Chance: 25%
    Save: None
    Effects: The mage increases the size of all waves within range by 1 foot(+1
    foot/rank) and increases the size of all swells within range by 1 foot(+1
    foot per 2 ranks). It takes 30 minutes – 1 minute per rank for the full
    effects of this spell to come into play. So a Water Mage who is rank 15 in
    this spell attempts to Wave Making, it will take 15 minutes (30 minutes –
    15 ranks in this spell) for the full effects of the spell to come into effect.


    3. Speak to Seabirds
    Range: 15 feet+10 feet/lvl
    Duration: Concentration/no max
    EXP Multiple: 100
    Base Chance: 60%
    Save: None
    Effects: The spell allows the Mage to communicate verbally with gulls,
    terns, penguins, pelicans, and other seabirds.

    4. Speak to Fish
    Range: 10 feet+5 feet/lvl
    Duration: Concentration/no max
    EXP Multiple: 150
    Base Chance: 40%
    Save: None
    Effects: The spell allows the Mage to communicate verbally with Fish. They
    will be able to answer simple questions as to what’s in their area, what
    they might have seen recently, etc.

    5. Floatation
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 10 min + 10 min/lvl
    EXP Multiple: 75
    Base chance: 45%
    Save: None
    Effects: Gives targets the ability to swim even if target has never swum
    before. Target cannot drown unless some outside force forces him under.

    6. Navigation
    Range: Works at any range
    Duration: 1 hour + 1 hour/rank
    EXP Multiple: 125
    Base Chance: 15%
    Save: None
    Effects: The spell attunes the caster's mind to the sea and the winds,
    allowing him to sail with less chance of mishap. For every 3 ranks with
    this spell, the targets Navigating skill is raised one rank. If the target
    has no Navigating skills at all (i.e. no ranks in Navigating) the effects
    of this spell are halved. In addition, any rolls made in conjunction with
    steering the ship are made with a bonus of 5% +(1% per rank) to all die
    rolls. This could include things like veering off course, running aground,
    etc..

    7. Liquid Purification
    Range: 1 foot per rank
    Duration: Immediate/Permanent
    EXP Multiple: 350
    Base Chance: 30%
    Save: None
    Effects: Turns 1 gallon (+1 per rank) of any liquid into potable water.


    8. Speak with Aquatic Mammals
    Range: 15 feet + 15 feet/lvl
    Duration: Concentration no max
    EXP Multiple: 125
    Base Chance: 35%
    Save: None
    Effects: The spell gives the caster the ability to communicate
    verbally(through sounds) with dolphins, whales, porpoises, sealions, seals
    ant other aquatic mammals.

    9. Summon Aquatic Mammals
    Range: Special
    Duration: Immediate
    EXP Multiple: 100
    Base Chance: 20%
    Save: None
    Effects: The mage may summon 1 aquatic mammal (+1 additional mammal per 3
    ranks above rank 5). It will take about 30 minutes-1min per rank for the
    mammal to arrive. The mammal must be native to the area summoned. Note:
    this spell will not work on land or in water where the summoned creature
    could not survive or would be in great discomfort or pain.

    10. Mage Wind
    Range: 10 feet + 10 feet per rank
    Duration: 5 min x D10 X rank
    EXP Multiple: 125
    Base Chance: 30%
    Save: None
    Effects: The mage may summon a wind strong enough to power a Lugger (a boat
    up to 45 feet in length) at the rate of 1 TMR (+1 additional TMR per rank).
    Unless the ship is facing into the wind. If facing into the wind, the
    speed of the prevailing wind is subtracted from the ships speed ( the rate
    at which it is propelled by the mage wind). The mage may freely alter the
    direction of the mage wind during the spell.

    11. Water Creation
    Range: Mage must touch substance from which water is drawn
    Duration: Immediate
    EXP Multiple: 150
    Base Chance: 35%
    Save: None
    Effects: The spell allows the mage to extract moisture from the air or from
    plants(providing there is moisture available to be extracted) in the amount
    of 1 pint (+1 pint per rank).

    12. Watersight
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 1 hour + 1 hour/lvl
    EXP Multiple: 100
    Base Chance: 50%
    Save: None
    Effects: Spell forms a transparent film over the targets eyes enabling him
    to see underwater as if he were wearing goggles or a diving mask.


    13. Water Breathing
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 1 hour + 1 hour/lvl
    EXP Multiple: 200
    Base Chance: 25%
    Save: None
    Effects: Spell forms a set of gills in the subjects neck allowing him to
    operate underwater without affecting his ability to operate on the surface.

    14. Shipbuilding
    Range: 90 feet
    Duration: Concentration/max of 2 hours + 1 hour per rank
    EXP Multiple: 200
    Base Chance: 20%
    Save: None
    Effects: This spell may be used to strengthen the structure of any ship or
    boat, repair leaks and holes, restep masts, etc.. At rank 10 and above, a
    small sail craft may be constructed instantly out of available wood using
    this spell. At rank 15 and above, a large craft may be constructed (one 40
    feet or more in length ). The effects of this spell are canceled if the
    mage fails to maintain it by concentrating on it. At the end of the spell,
    all of its effects are undone. If the spell was used to build a ship or
    boat, the craft immediately falls apart(even in mid-ocean). As the
    Duration states, the mage must concentrate on this spell for the entire
    time the spell is in effect. If the mage stops concentrating or his
    concentration is lost for any reason, the boat/ship will immediately fall
    apart. It is also important to note that while this spell will build a
    ship at higher levels, it won’t build a multi-level ship, or a ship with
    multiple cabins and such below. It will basically build something similar
    to a longship. A large long boat with a flat deck and no real hold below.

    15. Sea Blessing
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 1 week + 1 week/lvl
    EXP Multiple: 200
    Base Chance: 15%
    Save: None
    Effects: This spell may be cast on a character or seagoing craft at the
    beginning of a seagoing journey. It will decrease the chances that the
    character or craft will randomly encounter sea monsters, pirates, or face
    typhoons by 5% +1% per rank. Note: If the GM has a specific encounter
    planned, this spell obviously will have no effect on it.


    General Knowledge Rituals

    1. Ritual of Binding Water
    The mage may bind the elements of water within a radius of
    10 feet(+15 feet per rank) for a period equal to 1 hour (+1 hour/rank)
    while maintaining concentration. It takes an hour to perform this ritual,
    which has a base chance of success of the casters MA +(4 per rank). It may
    not be resisted unless the area contains a water elemental(which gets a
    save). The results are similar to the binding of all other elements. The
    mage gains control of all facets of the elements. He can, for example,
    create an intelligent water sprite(which will always have characteristics
    several points lower than the mage). Its every action would have to be
    directed by the mage, however. At rank 10 or higher the mage can create a
    free willed water sprite that will be loyal to him but not require that its
    every move be directed. Such entities will never leave the water. The EXP
    Multiple is 750.




    Special Knowledge Spells


    1. Speak with Water
    Range: 45 ft. + 15 per Rank
    Duration: 10 min. + 10 per Rank
    EXP Multiple.: 100
    Base Chance: 60%
    Save: None
    Effects: This spell allows the Adept to converse freely with any body of
    water. The water body will answer questions freely about goings-on in and
    near it to the best of its ability; however, the water may request ( a [50%
    - (Rank * 2)] chance) a favor of the Adept.

    2. Water Purification
    Range: Caster must touch the water being purified
    Duration: Immediate
    EXP Multiple: 150
    Base Chance: 40%
    Save: None
    Effects: Turns 1 gallon per rank of undrinkable water into drinkable water.

    3. Walk on Water
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 1 hr. + 1 per Rank
    EXP Multiple: 175
    Base Chance: 50%
    Save: Negates (if desired)
    Effects: The target of this spell can walk on water. Strong waves will
    knock the target down, but they only land on a soft cushion of water, from
    which they buoy up to the surface like a cork. The spell can be cast on
    animals, wagons, items, etc., as well as unwilling targets. When walking
    on water, the target has one-half their normal TMR.

    4. Underwater Action
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 1 hour + 1 hour/rank
    EXP Multiple: 200
    Base Chance: 20%
    Save: None
    Description: This spell allows the recipient to move freely underwater with
    no penalties. Thus weapons may be swung with no penalty. In addition, the
    recipient may survive at great depths without fear of being crushed by the
    pressure of the water. A character protected by this spell need not fear
    decompression sickness (the "bends").

    5. Liquid Transformation
    Range: touch
    Duration: immediate
    EXP Multiple: 350
    Base Chance: 70%
    Save: none
    Effects: The caster may turn 1 pint of potable water into a general
    antidote for venom. The number of doses created by the spell is equal to 1
    + 1 per 3 ranks of caster. Each dose causes any venom to become inactive
    and will cure 1 hp of damage caused by venom.

    6. Waters of Strength
    Range: Touch
    Duration: Immediate
    EXP Multiple: 350
    Base Chance: 30%
    Save: none
    Effects: This spell will produce 1 dose of a Strength potion out of a pint
    of potable water. When drunk the potion adds a D6 (+1 per two ranks with
    spell) to the drinkers PS for a period of 15 minutes. Note that the
    duration begins as soon as the potion is created, not when it’s drunk. So
    a Mage could not create a strength potion and then save it for use at a
    later time.

    7. Summon Fish
    Range: Works at any range
    Duration: Immediate
    EXP Multiple: 100
    Base Chance: 25%
    Save: None
    Effects: The spell summons 1 fish native to the area at ranks 1-9. At rank
    10 and above it summons a D10 fish. The spell may only be cast while on a
    body of water or standing within 100 feet of water.

    8. Control Fish
    Range: 10 feet + 10 feet per rank
    Duration: Concentration/ no max
    EXP Multiple: 100
    Base Chance: 20%
    Save: Negates
    Effects: The caster may control 1 fish (+1 per every 2 ranks). The fish
    will continue to serve him only so long as he concentrates or until the
    fish goes away (i.e. moves out of range of the spell). A fish that is no
    longer in controlled but still in the vicinity of the group may still attack.

    9. Wall of Water
    Range: 5 feet + 5 feet/rank
    Duration: 10 rounds + 1 round per rank
    EXP Multiple: 150
    Base: 30%
    Save: None
    Effects: This brings into effect an immobile wall of continuously churning
    water that looks very much like a tidal wave stuck in place. The wave does
    no damage unless someone attempts to pass through it. If a creature
    attempts to pass though it, they must make a saving throw. If successful,
    target passes through the wall with no damage. If unsuccessful, the
    effects depend on the casters rank. At ranks 1-10, the target cannot pass
    through the wall. At rank 11 or higher, the target gets sucked into the
    wall and takes 1d4 (+1 per 3 ranks) per round until they are able to free
    themselves of the wall. To free themselves of the wall, they must roll
    their AG+PS or less on percentile. If the target frees themselves of the
    wall, they have a 50% chance of landing on either side of the wall. They
    have no say in where they land. It is possible to cast this spell on top
    of a target, but the target, unless they choose to stay where they stand,
    has the option of being pushed out of the wall with no ill effects. If
    this happens, they may choose which side of the wall they are pushed to.

    10. Bolt of Water
    Range: 15 feet + 15 feet/rank
    Duration: Immediate
    EXP Multiple: 200
    Base Chance: 15%
    Save: None
    Effects: A bolt of water springs from the caster's palm and strikes the
    target causing 1 point damage per rank of the caster. This spell is
    effective both in and out of water.

    11. Control Sea Mammals
    Range: 10 feet + 10 feet per rank
    Duration: Concentration/ no max
    EXP Multiple: 200
    Base Chance: 25%
    Save: Negates
    Effects: The caster may control 1 sea mammal (+1 per every 2 ranks). The
    sea mammal will continue to serve him only so long as he concentrates or
    until the sea mammal goes away (moves out of range of the spell). A sea
    mammal that is no longer in controlled but still in the vicinity of the
    group may still attack.

    12. Waters of Vision
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 10 seconds
    EXP Multiple: 250
    Base Chance: 25%
    Save: None
    Effects: The caster must touch a pool of still water with his hand. He
    will then experience visions(usually precognitive in nature) concocted by
    the GM. At rank 5 and above, he my use this technique to spy into a area
    to see what is going on there. The distance from the character to the area
    being spied into is 5 miles(+5 miles per rank).

    13. Windsail
    Range: 10 feet + 10 feet per rank
    Duration: 5 minutes + 3 minutes per rank
    EXP Multiple: 250
    Base Chance: 25%
    Save: None
    Effects: The mage casts this spell over any watercraft of a surface type
    equal to 10 feet in length (+10 feet per rank) or less in size. It creates
    a sail of bound water sprites which will not rip or break the mast and
    which will carry the ship in the direction of the casters choice and at the
    speed equal to the ships normal movement (TMR) given prevailing conditions
    +1 additional TMR per 3 ranks of the caster with this spell (rounded up).

    14. Call Rain
    Range: 15 miles + 1 mile per rank
    Duration: 1 day
    EXP Multiple: 300
    Base Chance: 15%
    Save: None
    Effects: Will gather any rain clouds within range of spell and cause a
    localized squall to follow the mage for 1 day.

    15. Maelstrom
    Range: 10 feet + 2 feet per rank
    Duration: 10 seconds + 5 sec per rank
    EXP Multiple: 500
    Base Chance: 10%
    Save: Negates
    Effects: The mage creates a horrifying watery vortex with a diameter of 2
    feet + 2 feet per rank which exists entirely within the spells range. All
    objects and entities within the vortex must save or they are sucked into
    the vortex and down to the sea bottom. All those within 10 feet must save
    or they get sucked towards the vortex and take a D4 damage per rank if they
    miss a second save they are sucked down also. This spell will only be
    effective if cast over a large body of water(sea, ocean, or large lake).

    16. Torrential Geyser
    Range: 15 ft. + 15 per Rank
    Duration: Concentration (max. 1 round + 1 per rank)
    EXP Multiple: 575
    Base Chance: 5%
    Save: Negates
    Effects: This spell summons a geyser of water and fires it at a single
    target for the duration of the spell. The water does 1D6 (+ 2 per Rank)
    damage unless saved against, in which case it does no damage for that round
    only. In addition, the target is forced back 5 feet each pulse the spray
    strikes the target. The spell can only be cast on a body of water, it will
    not be able to summon a geyser on land.

    17. Waterspout
    Range: 60 feet + 10 feet per rank
    Duration: 1 Pulse per rank
    EXP Multiple: 750
    Base Chance: 5%
    Save: Reduced damage
    Effects: The mage creates a tornado like formation over a body of water
    which has a radius of 5 feet +1 foot per rank. The tornado tears apart
    anything in its path that fails to save. The tornado does a D6 damage per
    rank to all who save instead of destroying them and scattering the bloody
    pieces to the winds. The mage may move the tornado in any direction he
    wishes at a rate of 1 TMR per rank of caster. It may never be moved onto
    dry land.

    18. Spell of Fireproofing
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 1 minutes + 1 minute per 2 ranks
    Save: None
    EXP Multiple: 500
    Base Chance: 9%
    Area: 1 object
    Effects: This spell was designed to protect ships from their worse enemy:
    fire. The mage is able to provide 10% protection vs. normal fires and 5%
    protection vs. magical fires to any one object that is standing or floating
    in water. The protection affords total protection, so if there is 30%
    normal protection (15 magic) on a ship and a roll of 30% or less is made,
    the fire does not even get started. This spell will protect a single
    sea-going vessel, including masts, rigging and sails, up to 10 feet in
    length at rank 0. This spell will NOT protect the crew members on a
    protected ship, as the ship is considered one object, and each crew member
    would be an additional object. As rank improves, the mages ability to
    protect larger ships and provide more protection also increases. For every
    rank with this spell, the mage may protect an additional 10 feet in length
    of ships and increase the protection of verses normal fires by 10% and
    magic by 5%. So a mage rank 5 in this spell would give 60% normal fire
    protection and 30% magic fire protection to a 60 foot ship. At rank 22,
    the mage can protect any size seagoing vessel with 100% protection against
    normal and magical fires. It should also be pointed out that this effects
    ALL fires. Existing fires that are on the ship when the spell is cast have
    a chance of being extinguished as well. This includes lanterns, a fire in
    the stove, etc. It also effects the lighting of fires as well by friendly
    crew members. So it would become very difficult for fire use against your
    enemy once this spell was cast as well as all attempts to light the ammo to
    launch would have a chance of not lighting.
    This spell can also be cast on a living creature and will give a 10%
    bonus per rank from normal fires at ranks 1-10 and a 5% protection per rank
    from magical fires at ranks 11+. So a mage rank 15 in this spell that cast
    it on a person would give the target 100% protection verses normal fires
    and 75% protection verses magical fires. The protection extends to worn
    clothing and carried gear as well. The protected person must be standing
    or floating in water (i.e., some significant portion of their anatomy must
    be physically in the water).

    19. Change Form
    Range: Self
    Duration: 1 hour per rank
    Save: None
    EXP Multiple: 200
    Base Chance: 20%
    Area: 1 object
    Effects: The mage is able to, after much time and study, able to change
    into another form with which they have a strong bond with. This form must
    be picked when the spell is first learned and can never be changed. Adepts
    are restricted to common underwater dwelling creatures of not more than 4
    times their normal weight nor less than ¼ their normal weight. (i.e. you
    can’t change into a minnow or a whale.) The more common forms include
    things like Dolphins, Sharks, Sea Turtles, etc. When the form is chosen,
    it must also be declared if the animal is a freshwater or seawater creature
    and the Adept is restricted to that type of water when changed. When in
    changed form, they gain all the abilities of that creature. The Adept may
    not cast spells while in this changed form.
    The Adept may not change into this shape until they have
    reached rank 10 in this spell. Once the spell is successfully cast, it
    takes 25 -1 per rank rounds (1 round at rank 22) for the transformation to
    take place. For every rank that Adept is with this ritual, they may stay
    in their changed form for 1 hour. At rank 22, they may stay changed as
    long as they desire. At the end of the duration, the Adept will revert to
    their normal form no matter where they may be located at the
    time. Also, an Adept must rest at least 1 hour after changing before
    being able to change again.

    Special Knowledge Rituals

    1. Ritual of Curing Decompression Sickness
    This ritual completely cure decompression sickness and all of its
    associated affects on the target. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform and
    may take no other actions during the time the ritual is being
    performed. The base chance for success with this ritual is 20%. The EXP
    Multiple is 100.

    2 Ritual of Summoning and Binding a Water Elemental
    The mage may summon a Water Elemental and bind him to temporary
    service by performing this ritual. The ritual takes two hours. It may
    only be performed if the summoner remains stationary and takes no other
    action during the time the ritual is being performed. At the end of the
    two hour ritual the summoners player rolls a D100. If the resulting number
    is less than or equal to the summoners MA (modified), then the elemental is
    summoned and controlled. If the result is 30 or more higher than the
    modified chance of summoning, then the ritual backfires and the elemental
    appears but is uncontrolled and will attack the summoner and his
    friends. Any other result has no effect. The chance that the ritual will
    be entirely successful is modified by the addition of the following numbers:
    +5% per rank of the caster.
    +1% for each point the casters WP is above 15
    A water elemental always appears within 20 feet of a summoner. It has a
    combined EN and FT equal to 15 (+15 per rank of ritual) and, unless
    controlled by the summoner will attack until dispelled by a Spell
    Counterspell of the College of Water Magic or killed. Once controlled, the
    Water Elemental remains controlled until the summoners concentration is
    broken or he chooses to send the elemental to his own dimension with a
    Spell Counterspell of his college. To successfully perform this ritual the
    mage must be within 20 feet of a large body of water. The EXP Multiple is 250.

    3 Ritual of Conjuring Sea Storm
    This spell summons elemental forces of nature in a fierce sea
    storm. Waves range from 20 to 50 feet in height, heavy rains obscure
    vision for more than a few feet, winds blow at 25 to 60 MPH. The storm may
    be delayed up to 2 (+1/rank) hours after casting. The storm may be
    summoned anywhere within 1 mile (+1/4 mile per rank) and will last 1 hour
    (+1 hour/rank). It effects a 10 mile radius (+2/rank). The EXP Multiple
    for this ritual is 350. The base cast chance for this ritual is 15%.

    4 Ritual of Destiny Sail
    The mage may command the body of water to carry the target vessel
    to a specified and known destination. The caster will be entranced for the
    duration of the journey as he concentrates on this spell. The vessel's
    speed is increased by 2 TMR (+1 per rank) knots while the spell is in
    effect. The destination must be a place which is in contact with the water
    (a bank, coast, etc.). The size of the vessel that may be transported with
    this ritual is based on the skill the mage has with this ritual. The size
    is 25 feet (+5 feet/rank for ranks 1-10, and +20 feet for ranks 11-21, and
    at rank 22 the mage may transport any ship). The casting time for this
    ritual is 5 hours. The base cast chance is 15%. The EXP Multiple is 700.


    Personal Spells created by Water Mages.

    These special knowledge spells were created for personal use by Water Mages
    and are not available to starting mages. They may only be traded for by
    someone that has them.

    1. Sashelan Blessing
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 2 hours/rank
    EXP Multiple: 100
    Base Chance: 30%
    Save: None
    Effects: This spell places the target person into a state of deep slumber
    as its most immediate effect. It infuses the tar­get(s) with the ability
    to breath water, survive underwa­ter pressure, and remain dry (including
    all belongings held when spell was cast) while under the effects of the
    Sashelan blessing. If the target of the spell remains above water, he
    continues to breathe air, but the spell only lasts for two rounds per level
    if the target is not submerged.
    The spell leaves a minor coral pink glamour over the target that is visible
    only in the upper fifty feet of water. Once submerged below that point, the
    shifts in color make it invisible except by detect magic spells. This spell
    cannot be cast on someone who already has some active water breathing magic
    (or the innate ability) ac­tive in her system, nor does it work on any
    creatures larger than man size. The target's slumber can be broken by
    damage or loud noises, but the hum of the deep (the constant background
    noise of the sea and its inhabitants) or any non damaging im­pacts (with
    dolphins or the like) are not enough to break the spell. If the target is
    awakened, the water breathing effect remains for only 1d6 rounds.

    2. Aura of the Sea
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 2 hours +1 hour /rank
    EXP Multiple: 350
    Base Chance: 25%
    Save: None
    Effects: This spell surrounds the target in a 2 foot thick nim­bus of green
    energy that quickly turns invisible in more than ten feet of water, as it
    lights up a 30 foot radius around the caster. This aura provides the target
    with all the adjustments and aid needed for a surface dweller to venture
    deep into a body of water with little problem. It handles the usual problem
    areas of breathing, sight, hearing, speech, warmth, and undersea movement
    all at once.
    • Breathing: The aura makes the water within it breath­able and keeps the
    caster dry as if in air, but is still water.
    • Sight: Looking out through the aura, the bearer of this magic sees
    normally for the depth in all conditions (including having a heightened
    chance at blindness while under the influence of this spell). In addition,
    the basic glow of the aura that provides a 60 foot di­ameter space of its
    own light never drops below the conditions of moonlit night (see "Undersea
    Facts of Life").
    • Speech and Hearing: PCs within aura of the sea hear normally. They can
    also engage in conversation, as the aura automatically translates both
    aquatic Elvish or the merfolk language into Common for the PC's ears and
    any PCs speech to aquatic Elvish. If neither speaker or listener understand
    these tongues, they at least have no problem clearly hearing the other's
    at­tempts at communication.
    • Warmth: The aura provides a basic level of warmth equal to the air
    temperature at the water's surface when cast, regardless of the depth of
    the water.
    • Movement: Rather than force a person to learn how to swim, the aura
    actually allows the target to move simply by thinking and with small body
    movements. In other words, the target gains a TMR 9 without any effort. In
    terms of other movement (including combat), the bearer has the effects of
    Underwater Action, al­lowing freedom of movement and the negation of the
    standard underwater combat penalties.

    3. Invisibility of the Sea
    Range: Touch
    Duration: 5 min + 5 min/rank
    EXP Multiple: 250
    Base Chance: 20%
    Save: None
    Effects: While the creature is in the water, they are invisible. At rank
    10 creatures under the effect my attack without the spell ending. At rank
    15 that become invisible to some of the special senses of sea creatures
    (i.e. sonar, elctro-sense of sharks, etc). exiting the water for any
    reason, ends the spell.

    4. Draxinor’s Breathing Sphere
    Range: Self
    Duration: 1 hour + 10 minutes per rank
    EXP Multiple: 300
    Base Chance: 40%
    Save: None
    Effects: An sphere 10 feet +1 foot per rank in diameter forms around the
    caster and the water inside the sphere becomes breathable. Just as if the
    person inside the sphere was under the effects of a water breathing spell.




    Jason Winter
    Alarian@direcway.com
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1680 From: Jason Winter Date: 3/18/2004
    Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
    Yea we do have some Naval Combat rules. They haven't had a lot of play
    testing up to this point though. It's a little too big to post here though
    (a word document that's 21 pages) I posted about it a while back, but if
    there is interest, I would be more than happy to send anyone that's
    interested a copy. Just keep in mind it's not 100% DQ legal.


    >
    >Jason,
    >
    >I would be interested in seeing what your group has come up with. Since
    >your group is involved in a sea-based game, have you developed any naval
    >rules? (i.e. ship-to-ship battles) If so, I would be very interested in
    >seeing them. I started on some rules a while back and didn't get very far.
    >
    >Stephen



    Jason Winter
    Alarian@direcway.com
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1681 From: J. Corey Date: 3/18/2004
    Subject: Re: Power Levels of the Magical Colleges
    I would be very interested to see what you have come up with!
    Please post.

    On Mar 18, 2004, at 2:54 PM, Jason Winter wrote:

    >
    > >>I always figured that a more water-based game world
    > >>would favor Water Magics.  You know, an island chain,
    > >>or a group of sailing explorers.  OTH, when I
    > >>read "Enhancing the Enchanter" I always figured he'd
    > >>used an older version of the rules or something.  The
    > >>Bantam 2nd edition just didn't bear out what he was
    > >>saying.  At least, I couldn't see it.  Frankly, I
    > >>always thought the College of Celestial Magics was the
    > >>weakest, due to their limitations based on daylight,
    > >>shadow, and such.  But, frankly, the differences
    > >>in "power" between the Colleges seemed minor at best
    > >>and mainly related to the creativity of the Adept.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >
    > >I never saw anyone pick Water magics, either.   Even in a water heavy
    > >world, I'd personally be more inclined towards Air than Water,
    > because
    > >you've still got some good ship-friendly spells plus more generally
    > >useful (and aggressive) ones.
    >
    > The mage in my current campaign is playing a Water Mage and has been
    > for
    > the past 4 years or so.  The campaign, for the most part is a sea
    > based
    > campaign with the group being the owner of a ship and they spend most
    > of
    > their time sailing the seas in search of adventure.  That said, and I
    > think
    > the player that plays the Water mage would agree, the class is very
    > weak,
    > even in a sea based campaign.  We have modified some of the spells
    > quite a
    > bit and added several new spells to help, but even then, I think if
    > the
    > player had to do it again, he would pick another college (I could be
    > wrong
    > on this).  By far the most common spell he casts is Bolt of Water
    > which is
    > very nasty I must admit.
    >
    > If there is interest, I could post our version of the College of
    > Water Magics.
    >
    > For that matter, I would be interested to hear of some others of you
    > if you
    > feel the new spells we've added fit with the spirit of the college.
    >
    > Any interest?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Jason Winter
    > Alarian@direcway.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
    >
    > ADVERTISEMENT
    > <image.tiff>
    > <image.tiff>
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dqn-list/
    >  
    > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    > dqn-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >  
    > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
    > Service.
    >
    >
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1682 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 3/19/2004
    Subject: Re: Naval Combat Rules
    Jason,

    Would it be possible to upload your naval rules to the files section on the Yahoo Groups page? Or, could you please email them me?

    hollywood314@juno.com

    Thanks. I'm looking forward to seeing what your group has developed. I liked the water magic stuff. There were some nice additions.

    Stephen.

    ________________________________________________________________
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    Group: dqn-list Message: 1683 From: rthorm Date: 3/19/2004
    Subject: Water Magics
    Water Magics is also the most magical of the 12 initial colleges in
    that it has the most general knowledge spells and therefore requires
    adepts with the highest magical aptitudes. Thus, Water Mages should
    be some of the rarest but also the most magical of mages.

    That said, I've never played or GMed for a Water Mage. But Water
    Magics are an intriguing area that could provide some interest. In my
    original draft of the "Water Works" adventure, I had some Water Mages
    inside as part of the opposition, and I did create a Bolt of Steam
    spell for them. But it just seemed out of place, and I never used it
    again.

    --Rodger Thorm
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1684 From: David Chappell Date: 3/19/2004
    Subject: Re: Water Magics
    --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "rthorm" <dqn@e...> wrote:
    > Water Magics is also the most magical of the 12 initial colleges in
    > that it has the most general knowledge spells and therefore
    requires
    > adepts with the highest magical aptitudes. Thus, Water Mages
    should
    > be some of the rarest but also the most magical of mages.

    That is probably what makes them so undesirable to players. The lack
    of offensive magic is not enough in itself to deter people, but the
    high magical aptitude cost makes it less likely for the adept to be
    effective in combat with weapons. It wouldn't be that hard to add in
    a d-5 + 1/rank spell early on, but since all of the campaigns I've
    been involved in have had the vast majority of the action take place
    on land, there was never a real clamor for them to be fixed.
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1685 From: David Chappell Date: 3/24/2004
    Subject: OpenRPG
    I have a small group that is going to be trying to play DQ online
    using OpenRPG soon. I'm curious if anyone else here has tried this
    and if any of you have any advice or warnings about it?

    Thanks,

    -David
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1686 From: mike.dunne@ntlworld.com Date: 3/24/2004
    Subject: Re: looking for a pdf of the enchanted woods
    Hi Andy, did you ever get these? I was also looking for these a while back.

    Best regards,
    Mike.

    >
    > From: "andy" <dracos71_99@yahoo.com>
    > Date: 2004/01/30 Fri AM 03:54:01 GMT
    > To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [DQN-list] looking for a pdf of the enchanted woods
    >
    > hey all i am looking for someone who hase the palace of
    > onticel and or the enchanted woods game moduals in a pdf
    > format that they would bee willing to send me
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dqn-list/
    >
    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    > dqn-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    >
    >
    >

    -----------------------------------------
    Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1687 From: J. Corey Date: 3/24/2004
    Subject: Re: looking for a pdf of the enchanted woods
    I have been rumbling about launching my site, that is devoted to DQ
    adventures. One of the things I want to try and do is get scans/PDFs
    of all of the published adventures. of course A) the site is not
    launched, and B) I don't have a scanner or OCR software. But these
    kinds of things can be handled :-)


    On Mar 24, 2004, at 6:24 PM, <mike.dunne@ntlworld.com> wrote:

    > Hi Andy, did you ever get these? I was also looking for these a while
    > back.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Mike.
    >
    > >
    > > From: "andy" <dracos71_99@yahoo.com>
    > > Date: 2004/01/30 Fri AM 03:54:01 GMT
    > > To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
    > > Subject: [DQN-list] looking for a pdf of the enchanted woods
    > >
    > > hey  all  i  am  looking  for   someone  who   hase  the  palace  of
    > > onticel and  or  the  enchanted woods game  moduals  in  a pdf  
    > > format that  they  would bee  willing  to  send  me 
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > 
    > >
    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
    > >
    > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
    > >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dqn-list/
    > >
    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    > >  dqn-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > >
    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    > >  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    > -----------------------------------------
    > Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
    >
    > ADVERTISEMENT
    > <image.tiff>
    > <image.tiff>
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dqn-list/
    >  
    > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    > dqn-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >  
    > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
    > Service.
    >
    >
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1688 From: andy Date: 3/25/2004
    Subject: Re: looking for a pdf of the enchanted woods
    nope still looking for the palace of onticel and the enchanted
    woods the only person i know that even has the hardcopys is
    the the country away but the search continuse so if i
    find them ill let ya know
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1689 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 3/26/2004
    Subject: DQ Bundle on eBay
    Just happened to see this bundle on eBay.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
    ViewItem&item=3184141754&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1

    A nice start-up kit for those who are just discovering DQ.
    Don Hawthorne
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1690 From: lukeon58 Date: 4/1/2004
    Subject: Trying to developed some skills
    I am working on developing skills for samurai, archer and ninja. I
    have some drafts of these skills and will post them on the file
    section of this site. Please review and provide some comments and
    suggestions.

    Thanks.
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1691 From: rthorm Date: 4/1/2004
    Subject: Ares Magazines Proposal
    The kinetic Ian Taylor, who is the driving force over in the Universe
    RPG groups, has fielded a proposal that may also be of interest to
    DragonQuest players and fans.

    He is considering putting together a CD-ROM that would contain the
    contents, including the games, of all of the issues of Ares magazine.
    This would be something like what Dragon Magazine came out with a
    while back, when they put out issues 1-250 on a 5 CD-ROM set.

    He's looking to gage the general level of interest. I think that, on
    the whole, there was more for DragonQuest than for Universe in Ares.
    I suspect that there would be more than a few people here who would be
    interested in this if Ian does go ahead with this project.

    If you would be interested in buying a copy of this when/if it comes
    out, let me know. There's no commitment in it at this point; I'm just
    trying to gauge the level of interest.

    --Rodger Thorm
    dqn@cornellbox.com

    From: "Ian Taylor" <avalon@ois.com.au>
    Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:06 am
    Subject: General Updates and questions.....

    Greetings all,
    It's been a very busy few months.

    Thanks to all of you, who have visited my web site recently to have a
    look at the goings on with UNIVERSE: Frontiers, The UNIVERSE
    Collector's CD-ROM and UNIVERSE INTERACTIVE... There are plenty more
    updates to come as things progress...

    Questions for the group in General.

    <snip>

    2) Just and idea - but would anyone be interested in... A CD-ROM
    containing the Entire collection of Ares Magazines & their games in
    PDF Format?

    <snip>
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1692 From: HankBooth@aol.com Date: 4/1/2004
    Subject: Re: Ares Magazines Proposal
    I would very much be interested.
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1693 From: Esko Halttunen Date: 4/2/2004
    Subject: Re: Ares Magazines Proposal
    I'd definitely be interested. :-)

    Edi

    -------------

    rthorm wrote:

    >The kinetic Ian Taylor, who is the driving force over in the Universe
    >RPG groups, has fielded a proposal that may also be of interest to
    >DragonQuest players and fans.
    >
    >He is considering putting together a CD-ROM that would contain the
    >contents, including the games, of all of the issues of Ares magazine.
    > This would be something like what Dragon Magazine came out with a
    >while back, when they put out issues 1-250 on a 5 CD-ROM set.
    >
    >He's looking to gage the general level of interest. I think that, on
    >the whole, there was more for DragonQuest than for Universe in Ares.
    >I suspect that there would be more than a few people here who would be
    >interested in this if Ian does go ahead with this project.
    >
    >If you would be interested in buying a copy of this when/if it comes
    >out, let me know. There's no commitment in it at this point; I'm just
    >trying to gauge the level of interest.
    >
    > --Rodger Thorm
    > dqn@cornellbox.com
    >
    >
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1694 From: Esko Halttunen Date: 4/2/2004
    Subject: Re: Water Magics
    Sorry about jumping into the discussion so late that this post could
    legitimately be considered thread necromancy, but I've a few
    observations to make:

    I don't see a high MA requirement as an obstacle to playing a mage, in
    fact I actually prefer to have an MA of 17+ if I pick a mage. Sure, the
    other stats by necessity get somewhat shafted (and of course, it depends
    somewhat on how big a point pool I get), but then, power always comes at
    a price.

    The thing that I suspect causes Water Magics to be selected against is
    the lack of offensive spells, as already pointed out. However, I find it
    very perplexing that there are actually several existing offensive DQ
    spells that seem most intuitively to be Water Magic, but belong to other
    Colleges, specifically Air. The Spell of Ice Projectiles (Air, S-6),
    Spell of Frozen Doom (Air, S-17), Weapon of Cold (Air, S-9) are all
    spells that could and should also be in the College of Water Magics. The
    first two actually inflict damage through *ice*, which is just one state
    of the element of water (as opposed to the element of air), and the last
    one could also be a water spell because cold is intimately associated
    with snow and ice and winter. As much as the element of air is
    associated with cold, there is at least equal grounds for that
    association to be made for water.

    Then there are the other Air spells that are just as much Water: Snow
    Simulacrum, Wall of Ice, Ice Creation, Ice Construction. From where I'm
    standing, if you use a little bit of logic and actually look at the
    effects of spells and what is being used to achieve them, and what
    should by rights belong to which College, Air is starting to look only
    half as powerful as it it currently is and Water becomes *much* more
    powerful. Those two Colleges have the most overlap of any Colleges save
    Black Magic and Necromancy.

    Edi

    -----------------------

    David Chappell wrote:

    >--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "rthorm" <dqn@e...> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Water Magics is also the most magical of the 12 initial colleges in
    >>that it has the most general knowledge spells and therefore requires
    >>
    >>
    >>adepts with the highest magical aptitudes. Thus, Water Mages should
    >>
    >>
    >>be some of the rarest but also the most magical of mages.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >That is probably what makes them so undesirable to players. The lack
    >of offensive magic is not enough in itself to deter people, but the
    >high magical aptitude cost makes it less likely for the adept to be
    >effective in combat with weapons. It wouldn't be that hard to add in
    >a d-5 + 1/rank spell early on, but since all of the campaigns I've
    >been involved in have had the vast majority of the action take place
    >on land, there was never a real clamor for them to be fixed.
    >
    >
    >
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1695 From: Esko Halttunen Date: 4/2/2004
    Subject: DQ - Dominions
    Hello, all. :-)

    This post is going to be halfway off-topic to begin with, but it's going
    to wander into DQ eventually. It's a trailer of sorts on the newest DQ
    project under way in the cold, remote dominion of Finland.

    For those who know about Dominions, the next part is going to be nothing
    new, but for the rest of you, a brief introduction:

    Dominions - Priests, Prophets and Pretenders and its sequel, Dominions
    II: The Ascensions Wars are two turn-based fantasy strategy computer
    games from a small Swedish outfit called Illwinter. The best two fantasy
    strategy games out there, too. Your role is that of a pretender god who
    tries to kill off all the other pretender gods and ascend to full
    godhood, using magic and armies to accomplish your goal. For more
    details on the game, visit http://www.illwinter.com, and the Shrapnel
    Games website (they distribute Dom2).

    The issue relevant to this post is that Dominions has a very nice magic
    system, a summary of which follows:

    Magic is divided into eight paths, those of the four elements, death,
    astral, nature and blood. There is also a second division to schools of
    magic according to types of spell effect, which are conjuration,
    alteration, evocation, construction, enchantment, thaumaturgy and blood.
    All schools have nine circles of spells (ten if you count Circle 0, the
    most basic stuff everyone knows), increasingly more powerful, and every
    spell requires the mastery of one or two paths of magic (there are no
    triple combos).

    Being the type that I am, it gave me a lot of ideas. Specifically
    DQ-related ideas. I got the idea of converting this magic system to DQ
    rules and see what I can get and how that could be made to work. I
    mentioned this idea to the friend of mine who introduced me to
    Dominions, (and who also happens to be the fellow who helped me fine
    tune the optional Aspect rules and gave a lot of feedback on the CWT
    project last year), and it was like watching a spark hit dry tinder.
    We've got a preliminary framework for the conversion system already in
    place (mostly his work, as I've been short of time due to work, but my
    job ended today so I can devote more time to this before I find a new
    one) and after some modification, we'll be getting down to converting
    the spells to be suitable to DQ. The project will also bring new
    monsters into DQ, and I'm not talking about just one or two, but dozens
    (having >100 summonable creatures tends to do that) that have afaik not
    been seen in DQ before.

    Basically it boils down to the fact that when we're done, there will be
    an alternate magic system for DQ that can be applied with a simple,
    wholesale rip & replace operation . The new system will also in some
    respects be significantly more powerful in terms of effects and suitable
    for truly megalomaniacal gaming if there is inclination to play that way
    (within the DQ limitations, though, which means that getting killed is
    going to be just as easy, there'll just be lots of new and interesting
    ways for that to happen in addition to the old ones), and which will be
    very suitable for certain types of settings that are difficult to
    implement with existing DQ rules.

    It will also give an interesting possibility of having an old style DQ
    campaign invaded by people or beings whose magic is completely alien
    (i.e. works according to the new system). Most existing DQ spells are
    also going to stay in the system, they're just going to get defined
    according to magic paths, reassigned to appropriate school and into the
    appropriate circle (e.g. Dragon Flames is pretty high circle evocation).
    A big reason for this is that Dominions being a strategy game, it tends
    to focus on world-altering effects and combat magic, with the personal
    and everyday useful stuff (that is needed in an RPG) being rather
    nonexistent, and resuing the old spells is going to remedy that lack.

    Be warned that despite this introductory post, it is going to be quite a
    while before anybody gets their hands on anything concrete, as this
    project is going to take a *long* time to complete. Designing a new
    magic system from the ground up so that it works and then the 582 spells
    in it divided by type to 103 conjuration, 85 alteration, 82 evocation,
    15 construction (plus hundreds of magical artifacts), 84 enchantment, 61
    thaumaturgy, 59 blood and 34 special spells, and designing at a
    conservative estimate some hundred-odd new creatures isn't going to
    happen overnight. I do assure everyone that when it *is* finally done,
    it will be done with the same thoroughness that went into the CWT
    compilation. I'm also going to have to get permission from Illwinter to
    actually post this stuff when it's ready, but I'm fairly certain that
    they will be delighted to see this particular off-shoot of their work.
    They've been very nice about projects like this in the past.

    So, anyone interested?*

    Edi

    ---------------------------

    * Note that the question is rather rhetorical, as whether or not there
    is interest, this project is going to get done anyway because *we* want
    to see it done for our own amusement, and sharing the fruits of that
    labor with the DQ community will just happen to be a beneficial side
    effect... ;-)
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1696 From: D. Cameron King Date: 4/2/2004
    Subject: Re: Water Magics
    Esko Halttunen wrote:

    >The thing that I suspect causes Water Magics to be selected against is
    >the lack of offensive spells, as already pointed out. However, I find it
    >very perplexing that there are actually several existing offensive DQ
    >spells that seem most intuitively to be Water Magic, but belong to other
    >Colleges, specifically Air. The Spell of Ice Projectiles (Air, S-6),
    >Spell of Frozen Doom (Air, S-17), Weapon of Cold (Air, S-9) are all
    >spells that could and should also be in the College of Water Magics. The
    >first two actually inflict damage through *ice*, which is just one state
    >of the element of water (as opposed to the element of air), and the last
    >one could also be a water spell because cold is intimately associated
    >with snow and ice and winter. As much as the element of air is
    >associated with cold, there is at least equal grounds for that
    >association to be made for water.
    >
    >Then there are the other Air spells that are just as much Water: Snow
    >Simulacrum, Wall of Ice, Ice Creation, Ice Construction. From where I'm
    >standing, if you use a little bit of logic and actually look at the
    >effects of spells and what is being used to achieve them, and what
    >should by rights belong to which College, Air is starting to look only
    >half as powerful as it it currently is and Water becomes *much* more
    >powerful. Those two Colleges have the most overlap of any Colleges save
    >Black Magic and Necromancy.

    To some degree, you have a point (and certainly are not the first to make
    it). But your argument depends upon a quasi-scientific view of the
    Elemental colleges (ice = frozen water; therefore, frozen water spells
    should be Water Magics) that does not necessarily apply. If I recall
    correctly (I don't have the books in front of me), Water Adepts take a
    penalty to the Cast Chance if all the water near them is in a frozen
    state--suggesting that their particular elemental power is linked to the
    *fluid* state of the element. Air Magics, by contrast, while having
    ostensibly nothing to do with "frozen water," *does* (apparently) have a
    strong link to cold effects. If the College of Air Magics is viewed
    quasi-scientifically, one might conclude that spells like Ice Projectiles
    and Lightning are "outside the college's element," but DQ's design team
    evidently viewed it differently.

    For what it's worth, in my own campaign of long-ago, I revamped Water Magics
    to have ice spells and replaced (most of) the cold spells in Air Magics with
    weather-related stuff, so I think your idea has merit, but not because those
    spells "intuitively belong" where I put them. "Water Magics" doesn't
    necessarily imply *anything* about ice spells. It does, however, make for
    better game balance, IMO.

    -Cameron King

    _________________________________________________________________
    Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
    Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1697 From: Jamie Coleman Date: 4/2/2004
    Subject: Re: Water Magics
    I always had the impression that Water Magics was *primarily* interested
    in things involving Sea/Ocean effects (weather, fish, etc). Air Magics
    is interested in Weahter effects and Cold in general. Fire Magics is
    Heat & Energy, and Earth Magics is Plant/Animal/Mineral. I think the
    domains of the colleges are more defined from a non-scientific
    perspective of each element's "natural" realm: Sea, Sky, Flame, and Land.

    Ice effects aren't associated with the ocean, they're associated with
    the cold of winter -- brought to us by that chill winter wind.
    Likewise lightning comes out of the clouds.

    If you want a scientific approach, the elemental associations could be
    Fluid, Gas, Energy, and Solid. ;) And then Void for Celestial. *grin*

    I had toyed with doing a dehydration spell for Water magics, but never
    spent much time working out the details. Always seemed like it'd give
    some oomph to the college if you could drain some fatigue from someone
    by sucking water out of them and maybe refresh yourself at the same time. ;)

    --jamie
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1698 From: phaeton_nz@yahoo.co.nz Date: 4/2/2004
    Subject: Re: Water Magics
    >For what it's worth, in my own campaign of long-ago, I revamped Water Magics
    >to have ice spells and replaced (most of) the cold spells in Air Magics with
    >weather-related stuff, so I think your idea has merit, but not because those
    >spells "intuitively belong" where I put them. "Water Magics" doesn't
    >necessarily imply *anything* about ice spells. It does, however, make for
    >better game balance, IMO.

    We took a completely different approach in our Guild. The Ice Spells were
    taken out of Air to form the College of Ice. Other spells were formed to
    replace them and the new Ice College rounded out. Players of Air Mages were
    then given the option to respend their spell EP and convert to Ice which
    quite a few did. So far it's proved reasonable.

    As for Water being underpowered, I have to admit we have tinkered with the
    College a bit but it's still more of a support College. Ship Strength can
    be used to create instant forts, while Waters of Strengths, Healings and
    Vision are useful to the party. Resist Colds are also useful. Saturated
    Earth, Geyser, and Rainstorm can even be used in combat, the latter
    effective against enemy mages especially fire mages.

    Anyway, I play one of the few in our campaign and I think they're fun to play.

    Keith.
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1699 From: mormonyoyoman Date: 4/2/2004
    Subject: Ares on CD?
    You bet!! Bring it on!

    *jeep!
    ---Chet
    "If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong." --Gus
    Segar via Popeye
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1700 From: Esko Halttunen Date: 4/3/2004
    Subject: Re: Water Magics
    Cameron,

    True enough about the cast chance modifier for water mages (the frozen
    water modifer is the biggest penalty, too!), so you're probably right
    about what the design criteria were (for both air and water). It all
    depends on how you want to approach the issue. I tend to lump ice
    effects into the water school because it's just forzen water, but I
    don't exclude ice effects from air either, because air is often
    associated with cold and in cold temperatures water freezes. There *is*
    a reason why I said the air and water colleges can be quite reasonably
    said to significantly overlap. Not if we stick religiously to how the
    rules are written, though. I think Jamie's breakdown of it is the most
    accurate.

    Keith, that was an interesting approach you took, making a College of
    Ice Magics, I'd be interested in seeing that. :-)

    Edi


    D. Cameron King wrote:

    >To some degree, you have a point (and certainly are not the first to make
    >it). But your argument depends upon a quasi-scientific view of the
    >Elemental colleges (ice = frozen water; therefore, frozen water spells
    >should be Water Magics) that does not necessarily apply. If I recall
    >correctly (I don't have the books in front of me), Water Adepts take a
    >penalty to the Cast Chance if all the water near them is in a frozen
    >state--suggesting that their particular elemental power is linked to the
    >*fluid* state of the element. Air Magics, by contrast, while having
    >ostensibly nothing to do with "frozen water," *does* (apparently) have a
    >strong link to cold effects. If the College of Air Magics is viewed
    >quasi-scientifically, one might conclude that spells like Ice Projectiles
    >and Lightning are "outside the college's element," but DQ's design team
    >evidently viewed it differently.
    >
    >For what it's worth, in my own campaign of long-ago, I revamped Water Magics
    >to have ice spells and replaced (most of) the cold spells in Air Magics with
    >weather-related stuff, so I think your idea has merit, but not because those
    >spells "intuitively belong" where I put them. "Water Magics" doesn't
    >necessarily imply *anything* about ice spells. It does, however, make for
    >better game balance, IMO.
    >
    >-Cameron King
    >
    >
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1701 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 4/5/2004
    Subject: Re: Water Magics
    If we go back to what I presume is the original sources, ie Aristotle,
    classical – medieval – renaissance belief. Cold is associated with a
    combination of water and earth. Air is moist with water and hot with
    fire (air and earth are opposed; as are water and fire, again water is
    opposed to heat)

    Based on this the ice spells belong more in water than air. Yes I
    know the DQ spells aren't necessarily based on this, but DQ was very
    well researched (one of the things I like about it)

    David

    PS I would be interested in a CD
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1702 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 4/5/2004
    Subject: Re: Spell of Dehydration
    Here is the simple offensive spell I created a while back for water magics.

    Spell of Dehydration
    Range: 15 feet + 15 additional per Rank
    Duration: Immediate
    XP Mult: 200
    BC: 40%
    Resist: Can only be passively resisted
    Effect: The Adept causes the water in the target's body to evaporate. The evaporation inflicts (D-5) + 1 per Rank damage to the target.

    Stephen

    ________________________________________________________________
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    Group: dqn-list Message: 1703 From: rthorm Date: 4/8/2004
    Subject: ARES Compilation Project
    The Ares compilation project seems to be moving forward. Enough
    people have expressed an interest that he's trying to get it all
    pulled together now. I asked Ian for a guess on the cost of the
    compilation. He thought it would be around $50 (I assume thats AUD
    not USD, but there's not as big a difference between the two as there
    used to be).

    He has obtained most of the missing issues he needs in order to put
    together the Ares compilation. There are a few things that he is
    still looking for, however. If you have any of these and can help
    out, please contact Ian directly at avalon@ois.com.au


    Issue 5 Citadel of Blood: Got some OK counter scans but could do with
    a scan of unpunched Back and Front) - Though I feel like making my own
    up in full colour!

    Issue 12 Star Trader: I've got everything other than a MAP - damn damn
    damn...not the easiest thing to scan either from memory...

    Issue 13 Damocles Mission: Would be good to get Front and Back counter
    scans.

    Issue 16 High Crusade: I'll be getting the magazine - but no game -
    that could mean I'll get the rules (hopefully) but I'll be missing the
    map and counters - I'm looking over the net for them now.
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1704 From: lukeon58 Date: 4/9/2004
    Subject: Draft skills for archer, samurai & Ninja
    Hello:

    I would like some feedback on some draft skills I am trying to
    develop. I've placed these skills in file section of this site for
    review. Please provide assistance.

    Thanks
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1705 From: David Chappell Date: 4/19/2004
    Subject: Game worlds by other publishers
    I'm currently running a DragonQuest campaign set in the World of
    Greyhawk. I am curious if anyone else uses settings intended for
    other systems in their DQ games?

    -David
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1706 From: Jason Winter Date: 4/19/2004
    Subject: Re: Game worlds by other publishers
    I run in the Shadow World setting, and I have since it came out many years ago.


    At 05:12 AM 4/19/2004, you wrote:
    >I'm currently running a DragonQuest campaign set in the World of
    >Greyhawk. I am curious if anyone else uses settings intended for
    >other systems in their DQ games?
    >
    >-David




    Jason Winter
    Alarian@direcway.com
    Group: dqn-list Message: 1707 From: hollywood314@juno.com Date: 4/19/2004
    Subject: Re: Game worlds by other publishers
    My group has run games in both the Dragonlance and Thomas Covenant settings. Both converted surprisingly well and were alot of fun.

    Stephen

    ________________________________________________________________
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